Consumer Preference for ICE

[kltye]

<talks about 80% cliff when DCFC>

You might want to get that 21P22 program done there - it makes charging past 80% way more tolerable

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[phil]

How many ICE cars get 500 mile range on a single tank for a passenger car? NONE that are currently made.

I think you miscounted.

 

[ahg]

How many ICE cars get 500 mile range on a single tank for a passenger car? NONE that are currently made.

I can get very close to that with my V6 Accord.

 

[RedStallion]

In the US, 69% say no way EV: https://www.greencarreports.com/new...nt-ev-yet-half-wont-pay-extra-for-electrified

It's an entertaining piece of information, nothing more. And, of course, the polls can be very different depending on how you ask the questions.
Let the market decide. We need more different players in the market with different solutions so that the best may win. The last thing we need government imposing the rules and choosing the winners, especially when they have such an incredible track record choosing the losers.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

People ("friends" and "family") mocked me when I bought a Gen-1 Prius in 2002. "You'll be paying $10k for a new battery in a few years." I asked why they thought that. They said they'd seen it on one of their "news" programs. I never did pay for a new battery on that car. Nor any of the other hybrids I've owned.

Now certain "friends" and "family" are mocking me again for ordering a Mustang.
"It's not a 'real' Mustang."
"I would do it if it was reliable."
"I wouldn't ever get a BEV, the batteries are junk."

My experience is that people find themselves a "tribe" and do (and believe) whatever that tribe expects them to do (or believe). And they'll stick to those beliefs regardless of the reality of the situation. I have a family member who refuses to get an EV because his neighbors would make fun of him. He'll make up excuses, and no amount of evidence will convince him. "The batteries aren't there. "I want it to perform better than my '69 fastback." "I won't buy a new model anything."

/shrug
Whatever.

I've given up on trying to convince people, and if they make a snarky comments about "not a real Mustang," they don't get a ride in my Mustang.

 

[RedStallion]

Clearly there is demand, Tesla is selling like crazy, Ford is selling like crazy and once more chargers get built up, it will increase from there. I've sold so many Mach-Es just talking to people about it and answering their questions about EVs.

It's hard to measure the demand, because the EV production is still a small percentage of all cars produced. When most people get familiar with all pros and cons then we'll see a more clear picture.
Though I like my MME, it's clearly not for everybody, and even I myself prefer a large comfortable SUV for long rides. EVs in general are not for everybody, and neither I think the previous technology isn't going to be competitive for a long time. After all it took a couple of decades in the beginning of the last century for cars to reach the same market share as horses. And, of course, nobody knows what other discoveries and inventions will come in the years to come, which may make BEVs obsolete before becoming mainstream.

 

[RedStallion]

FUD is a very powerful thing, although I agree that right now BEV infrastructure isn't at the point where one can simply "get in the car and take a long trip" without planning. As for the survey, 40% of Americans refuse to get a free shot that can prevent them from dying so I am not surprised that the BEV disinformation campaign is so successful.

Prof. Mattias Desmet specializes on the subject of Mass Formation. I think you'll find it interesting to read or listen to what he has to say.

 

[DevSecOps]

Prof. Mattias Desmet specializes on the subject of Mass Formation. I think you'll find it interesting to read or listen to what he has to say.

If you've seen any of his posts you would know that this would not be something he would find interesting, rather something that would trigger him and probably cause a mental breakdown ?

 

[RedStallion]

If you've seen any of his posts you would know that this would not be something he would find interesting, rather something that would trigger him and probably cause a mental breakdown ?

It might not be a bad thing. I remember Prof. explained that dissenting voices might not change one's opinion but they still make people less susceptible to conditioning-induced hallucinations and prevent more serious psychological harm.

 

[TruWrecks]

My F350 will do 600+ miles on a tank

With 68 gallons of Diesel?

 

[DevSecOps]

With 68 gallons of Diesel?

Or 45 gallons of regular gas. Either way the comment was in regards to someone claiming that there's no gas vehicles that can go over 500 miles on a tank of gas, which is just factually wrong.

 

[romanservices]

With 68 gallons of Diesel?

No just 45, ?

 

[voxel]

I agree the survey does appear accurate. EVs and the associated charging infrastructure are still young in their development but are improving very quickly. While on the cusp of wide acceptance they still have a long way to go. Let me share a real world example to demonstrate the challenges. You can skip the details, if you want, and go straight to the summary below.

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We own a '15 Honda Odyssey and has about 480mi of range on a tank of gas, a Mach E Standard range RWD, and we owned a VW ID4 (swapped for Mach E). We make a trip of ~580mi (1160mi round trip) 4 or 5 time per year. You may argue that there are not a lot of families/people with that challenge, and you would be correct; however, there are enough families/people that have at least 1 of those types of trips to make this relevant. Using the Honda the trip take about 9 hours with a single fuel stop. Using the ID4 the same trip takes about 10 hours. Using the Mach E about 11.5 hours. That is ~7.5hr (driving time) + time for Bathroom, Food and Fuel/Charging. As you can see we are not shooting for a "cannonball run" type drive. While not exactly true we will remove the drive time from the equation since they all should be roughly the same. While the ID 4 (~250mi) and the Mach E(~230mi) have similar ranges you may ask why does the Mach E take so much longer. Plane and simple “CHARGING CURVE"(I am looking at you Ford).

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Fueling/Charging Curve (what we saw) and stops. The way we break it down is ~60min (for food) and 2 (15min) breaks/bathroom so about 1hr 30min. Since we can refuel in 15 min and eat in the car we can significantly cut into that time, but who really wants to do that with a family and not in a rush. What about charging stops? Well that is a little different story. Charging stops are simply a time suck. Theoretically you would charge to 80%, or what is need to get to the next stop, and be on your way but when traveling with a family that is a different story. For us each stop typically takes 60min (1 hr). One of the stops comes out in the wash since it involves food, but this works to the ID4's advantage. Since 80% to 100% is only an additional 20 (60min total) we are able to get the full ~245min. The Mach E on the other hand is still trying to get to 80% within those extra 20 minutes and only has 15min of the extra 20min left to add above 80%. That only nets an extra 8 miles. Wait you say, The Mach E has a max DC Charge rate of 150KW but ID4 has 125KW. That is true but because Ford Engineers decide to nerf the charging curve that advantage lasts about 5 min, and that is for 0% to 80%. Above 80% that drops to 11KW while the ID4 keeps trucking at 30-40KW to 90% and then starts a gradual charge rate reduction, unlike the Mach E that falls of a cliff at %80.

Odyssey (3 Stop)(90min)
0-100% 12min ~480mi

ID4 (3 Stops) (*120min)
0-80% 38min ~200mi
80-100% 60min ~245mi

Mach E (4 stops) (*240min)
0-80% 45min ~ 184mi
80-100 123min ~ 230mi

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Cost:
When using the ID4 the extra hour was tolerable and the charging was free (3yr Electrify America). Using the Mach E was not quite as fun and the charging was not cheap (580 mi/3.0 k/mi ~ 193.9 KW * $0.42 ~ $81.44). However, cost really isn't a factor for us since I am only paying for it 4 to 5 times per year, but other people might take that into account

Odyssey
$63

ID4
Free (Electrify America)

Mach E
$81.44 (Electrify America)
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Summary:

The ID4 was an excellent road tripping car and a very viable replacement for the Odyssey. If it had ~325mi of range in this limited scenario, it completely replaces the Odyssey and would take the same time. The Mach E is a different story. This truly highlights the need for the extended range Mach E and how the charging curve is what really matters. In Ford's defense they have release software update to improve the charging curve, but in my case I have not received any updates, so I can only work with what I got. For the average family making this trip to ask them to add an additional 4 hours is a non-starter (and that assumes no hiccups). It is this reality that is reflected in this survey. The good news is that, that reality will change sooner that rather than later.

Why did we trade the ID4 for the Mach E? Well ... that is another story

Your story matches my reasons for trading away my MME Standard Range and to wait for an Extended Range MME. The charging curve sucks and the SR range is borderline for long road trips.

100% agree the ID.4 is a better road trip car (I’ve said it before even though I dislike the car after owning it). The comfortable ride/suspension, flat charging curve, boxy cargo space, and free EA charging make it ideal as a family SUV.

Now I have a RAV4 Prime that can easily travel 550 miles on gas and another 42 miles on electric. AND the Prime matches the acceleration of the MME RWD SR. Serious. The gas and electric motors combined make 300hp and it hauls. I feel PHEVs are a better gateway to a full electric future. Driving the Prime in EV mode is just like driving the ID.4 - silent, fast, smooth. The switch to gas mode is fairly seamless too. Also… BEVs are terrible in cold climates. A gas engine in a PHEV can help heat the cabin and battery.

 

[Cptmorgemaker]

My problem that that 3 min vs DC speed is on a road trip where you are refilling to move on is I am goign to call the 3 min complete and utter BS. The 3 mins only apply to refilling around town which in that case you should be charging at home so the charge time does not matter.
on a road trip when people stop for gas they tend to also try to combine it any how with bathroom, and food. Add up the that entire time and all of a sudden DC fast charging is no as slow. It OMG about the same damn speed.

The road warrior BS people give is exactly that Bull shit. Most people do not do that. They stop, fill up car, then bathroom, snack and so on. With DC fast charging it is plug in your car and go do those things while it is charging. I know when I was stopping at bucees driving long distance my Buccee stop was at best 20-30 mins. It went gas then go inside order food, bathroom, then pick up food and head out. That entire process took 20-30 mins. If it was DC fast charging now it would go there, plug in car, walk inside and repeat. About the same time I would normally get back to my car the DC fast charging would be finished. Hell I might slow down a little but still it a difference of sub 5 mins.

Yea you can claim BS on that but there's a lot of people that don't and there's a lot of people that actually do have a lot of road time. I work with five guys that drive an hour and 10 minutes each way to work. I can tell you I would not trust ev in the cold right now in those drives. Home charging isn't sufficient enough. Always for me when I'm not home for 2 or 3 days. My car is dead and then I go home. I'm only home for an hour or 2. And there's just simply no EV chargers yet for to start replacing trucks hauling.

 

[mkhuffman]

My Hyundai Ioniq that I traded in for my MME got over 600 miles on a tank at 55mpg+

My E320 diesel will go over 600 miles on the highway between fill-ups as well. Of course it is not a current model year.

I disagree that 300 miles of BEV range is enough. 600 miles of true highway BEV range would practically eliminate the charger availability issue.

Which will happen first: a DCFC on every corner, or 600 mile range EVs? I don't know the answer, but more likely the latter. We won't need a DCFC on every corner if our cars really go 600 miles on a charge.

The difference is the ability to charge at home, charge at a hotel, and charge at a friend's house. No ICE vehicle can do that, so you need gas stations. If you can get all your charging without needing to stop between destinations, you don't need a DCFC at all.

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