Decided to cancelled Mach E for a Model Y

[dbsb3233]

Very early stages yes. I have little faith, even if we converge on a connector standard in the US, charging will improve.

I'm not all that interested in Europe, but in the US, CCS charging has been improving every year. It's true that it's not as good as Tesla Supercharging (that has about a 5-year headstart), and may never be as good because it's simply more problematic to universally service all different manufacturers (as I noted above, and as Tesla will find out when they open up). But I do have faith that CCS will improve over time and become quite good.

Right now, quantity is the priority over quality. And that makes sense. I'd rather have a few messy charging experiences on road trips than not be able to take the road trip at all for lack of DCFC along the route. Quality can be the focus after quantity gets where it needs to be.

Your point about funding is a good one that we've discussed a lot before. Yes, DCFC charging is a notorious money-loser. With most people charging at home, and each DCFC charge taking 15-45 minutes, customer throughout is extremely low (relative to the gas station model). Prices may need to rise, and sadly, we may be stuck with permanent taxpayer funding to keep many of these stations alive. The good news though is that the bulk of the expenses are up-front for equipment and installation. Once it's in, electricity and maintenance costs may have a chance to pay for themselves through sales revenue. It's those initial equipment/install costs that are the biggie.

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[dbsb3233]

VW CEO ripped apart the European version of EA - Ionity:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/08/diess-gives-ionity-a-scathing-review-online/

That network seems to be as poor and small as EA here.

“Due to delays in its roadmap (mainly due to the Covid, and also a lack of funding), Ionity doesn't brag about the stalls installed in Europe. Operating 336 charging stations with just over 1000 stalls at the end of Q1 2021, the network competes with Tesla supercharger's network with 6000 stalls and 600 stations in Europe at the same time. In August 2021, Volkswagen's CEO Herbert Diess, one of the main partners through Porsche, criticizes Ionity Charging Experience on LinkedIn, pointing that the service is simply not good enough with lack of stations/stalls/toilets/refreshments, charging points out of service. "simply not premium".[23]”

EA is up to 673 stations in the US now (2212 chargers). With another 136 locations chosen for "coming soon" status. By 2025, they're planning a total of 1800 stations.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...rging-network-by-2025-expand-to-upper-midwest

 

[voxel]

By 2025, they're planning a total of 1800 stations.

That's when VW settlement money runs out. And who wants to invest billions in money losing end-consumer charging? (the profits are in commercial fleet charging IMO)

I argue the "quantity vs. quality" push has got us into the public non-Tesla charging predicament today. It's an unreliable experience with very questionable station placement. Mostly works... but can't rely on it and when it breaks nobody can explain why (all drivers can do is call EA and ask for a station to be rebooted like a Windows PC)

As we move to 800V cars (we will, higher voltage + lower amps is always desirable) the older non 350 kW chargers will be deprecated or replaced. This will be very expensive and require serious capital or subsidies.

Again, Tesla should spin off their Superchargers and force EV makers to use their connector + eco-system. EA/EVgo/ChargePoint may not be around in 5+ years anyhow.

 

[silverelan]

That's when VW settlement money runs out. And who wants to invest billions in money losing end-consumer charging? (the profits are in commercial fleet charging IMO)

I argue the "quantity vs. quality" push has got us into the public non-Tesla charging predicament today. It's an unreliable experience with very questionable station placement. Mostly works... but can't rely on it and when it breaks nobody can explain why (all drivers can do is call EA and ask for a station to be rebooted like a Windows PC)

As we move to 800V cars (we will, higher voltage + lower amps is always desirable) the older non 350 kW chargers will be deprecated or replaced. This will be very expensive and require serious capital or subsidies.

Again, Tesla should spin off their Superchargers and force EV makers to use their connector + eco-system. EA/EVgo/ChargePoint may not be around in 5+ years anyhow.

Superchargers help to sell Teslas and they're also funded by thousands of dollars per Tesla sold. I wonder if other automakers will just need to suck it up and pony up cash to charging providers to enable sales?

 

[dbsb3233]

That's when VW settlement money runs out. And who wants to invest billions in money losing end-consumer charging? (the profits are in commercial fleet charging IMO)

I argue the "quantity vs. quality" push has got us into the public non-Tesla charging predicament today. It's an unreliable experience with very questionable station placement. Mostly works... but can't rely on it and when it breaks nobody can explain why (all drivers can do is call EA and ask for a station to be rebooted like a Windows PC)

As we move to 800V cars (we will, higher voltage + lower amps is always desirable) the older non 350 kW chargers will be deprecated or replaced. This will be very expensive and require serious capital or subsidies.

Again, Tesla should spin off their Superchargers and force EV makers to use their connector + eco-system. EA/EVgo/ChargePoint may not be around in 5+ years anyhow.

Well, all I can say is good luck expecting Tesla connectors to become the new standard. Seems pretty clear to me that CCS already is the standard and that isn't going to reverse.

Tesla may spin off the SC network at some point, but that network can't "force" manufacturers to do anything. And without massive Tesla subsidy, the SC network would be in the same boat as the others that you think are going out of business.

What you call a predicament, I call an important necessity. We've done 8000 miles of road-tripping this year in our Mach-E that we wouldn't have been able to do without EA stations. If those had to wait a few more years until the experience was 99% perfect, we'd be stuck using our ICE car instead. Not even sure we'd have bought the Mach-E if that were the case.

Sure, we'd all love a perfect charging experience every time. But when it really comes down to it, what people value the most is just making sure there's a charger there and that they can leave with a charge, even if it's a messy one 20% of the time. A (lengthy) route without DCFC is a route that's off-limits for a BEV.

I also disagree on "questionable placement". I find EA's charger placement to be quite smart and effective for road trips routes. It's great that they're usually in shopping center lots with a Walmart or Target, and restaurants. Where I would agree is their excessive allocation in some cities (like Denver, Las Vegas, etc). I'd much rather see the between-city road trip routes built out first for travelers. City locals should be charging on L2 at home/work.

 

[Accord07]

Again, Tesla should spin off their Superchargers and force EV makers to use their connector + eco-system. EA/EVgo/ChargePoint may not be around in 5+ years anyhow.

Exactly what leverage does Tesla have over other automakers? I find the obsession over the size of the connector a bit odd, it is not something one has to carry in a pocket, or even in a backpack. The two connectors will co-exist for a long time.

 

[EVready]

I have read that one reason Tesla is opening their charging network to all EVs is because they will make more money....>$25B per year is what I recall. Not a bad strategy if its true.

BTW, I also test drove all three contenders (MY, MME, ID4) and in quick summary: I liked both the MY and MME; wasn't thrilled with the ID4 - kinda pedestrian. The MME had a quieter and smoother ride, the MY was quicker.

Lots of changes coming in the next few years so that trying to find the best fit for you is like hitting a moving target - we need to understand whats at the top of the decision tree.....

 

[dbsb3233]

I wonder if other automakers will just need to suck it up and pony up cash to charging providers to enable sales?

I don't expect that to happen. Legacy automakers are happy selling ICE/hybrid if poor DCFC experiences actually inhibit BEV sales. Tesla is the one that would suffer (as the only BEV-only automaker of size (outside of China)), which is why they already ponied up to spend a fortune building the SC network.

The other factor involved is the government throwing tons of taxpayer money at it ($trillions are the new $billions, after all). As long as the govt is already doing it, legacy manufacturers aren't likely to throw big money at it. They'll just concentrate on building the cars.

I don't think the DCFC situation is as bad as some are describing it, considering where we are in the adoption curve. It's still early, and growing pains are to be expected. I think it will improve significantly each year, just like it already has. Just gonna take some patience. 5 years from now will make today look like ancient history.

 

[silverelan]

I don't expect that to happen. Legacy automakers are happy selling ICE/hybrid if poor DCFC experiences actually inhibit BEV sales. Tesla is the one that would suffer (as the only BEV-only automaker of size (outside of China)), which is why they already ponied up to spend a fortune building the SC network.

The other factor involved is the government throwing tons of taxpayer money at it ($trillions are the new $billions, after all). As long as the govt is already doing it, legacy manufacturers aren't likely to throw big money at it. They'll just concentrate on building the cars.

I don't think the DCFC situation is as bad as some are describing it, considering where we are in the adoption curve. It's still early, and growing pains are to be expected. I think it will improve significantly each year, just like it already has. Just gonna take some patience. 5 years from now will make today look like ancient history.

Elon said two things sell Teslas: Service Centers and Superchargers. That similarly applies to the Mustang Mach-E and other CCS cars: dealers and CCS stations.

Fortunately, the EV charging situation today is the worst it'll ever be. New stations open daily and automakers are throwing money at network providers to help build the networks. I just wish EVgo or someone else would also take up the cross-country mantle to install HPC stations along interstates and highways.

 

[dbsb3233]

Elon said two things sell Teslas: Service Centers and Superchargers. That similarly applies to the Mustang Mach-E and other CCS cars: dealers and CCS stations.

Fortunately, the EV charging situation today is the worst it'll ever be. New stations open daily and automakers are throwing money at network providers to help build the networks. I just wish EVgo or someone else would also take up the cross-country mantle to install HPC stations along interstates and highways.

I'm dubious of the Service Center claim there, but yes on the SC network. But that also takes some perspective. That was true when there was no viable alternative. BEV buyers want dependable DCFC for road tripping. And for years, the SC network was the only viable choice. Still is in some places, although that's narrowing a lot.

Proprietary SC is still a cleaner/easier DCFC experience than CCS, but that gap is narrowing too. Like you say, the US CCS network gets bigger by the day, as does the charging experience. That advantage for Tesla is gradually fading.

 

[voxel]

I also disagree on "questionable placement". I find EA's charger placement to be quite smart and effective for road trips routes. It's great that they're usually in shopping center lots with a Walmart or Target, and restaurants. Where I would agree is their excessive allocation in some cities (like Denver, Las Vegas, etc). I'd much rather see the between-city road trip routes built out first for travelers. City locals should be charging on L2 at home/work.

If you read the EA financial report (it's an odd document since they operate like a non-profit) they spent 60% of their charger funds in California alone. Not sure if that was due to VW settlement rules or not.

It's great that you think EA is fantastic but it is operated like a charity right now. Financially, EA needs to double or triple the per kWh rate to even get close to breaking even... which is exactly how Ionity works in Europe (it can be very expensive).

Outside of the west cost and the east corridor... EA coverage is pretty spotty. It's not even on the turnpike here to Miami.

FYI.. I'm not arguing for Tesla connector only. I'm argue for the entire Tesla charging eco-system (app, communication network, hardware in charger and car). Ionity in Europe has proven that ICE car makers still can't build or manage reliable charging networks.

 

[AZBill]

As we move to 800V cars (we will, higher voltage + lower amps is always desirable) the older non 350 kW chargers will be deprecated or replaced. This will be very expensive and require serious capital or subsidies.

FYI, Tesla Superchargers do not support 800V currently either.

 

[dbsb3233]

If you read the EA financial report (it's an odd document since they operate like a non-profit) they spent 60% of their charger funds in California alone. Not sure if that was due to VW settlement rules or not.

It's great that you think EA is fantastic but it is operated like a charity right now. Financially, EA needs to triple or quadruple the per kWh rate to even get close to breaking even... which is exactly how Ionity works in Europe (it can be very expensive).

Outside of the west cost and the east corridor... EA coverage is pretty spotty. It's not even on the turnpike here to Miami.

FYI.. I'm not arguing for Tesla connector only. I'm argue for the entire Tesla charging eco-system (app, communication network, hardware in charger and car). Ionity in Europe has proven that ICE car makers still can't build or manage reliable charging networks.

I wouldn't say "fantastic" (I think I said B+, so pretty good). Yes, there's no doubt that they will need WAY more business (revenue) in the long run. There's very little now because there's very few CCS BEVs on US roads (roughly 270k, which is just 0.1% of all vehicles). And 90% of charging is at home rather than retail DCFC. It's a tiny customer base that only road trips a few weeks per year on avg.

But that customer base will ramp up from here. By 2025 that 270k number could rise 20-fold, and EA's charger revenue along with it.

I agree about too much of EA's focus being in CA, but I can see why they focused so much there in the early going - that's where most of the CCS BEVs were. Now with vehicles like the Mach-E, Lightning, ID4, etc we're seeing more 50-state sales strategies rather than mostly just CA (or ZEV state) sales strategies.

 

[Mach1E]

I've ridden in a MY, test driven a MME. I agree on the brakes. I didn't like it, particularly at slower speeds. I spend a chunk of my commute moving at less than 5 mph so the braking did worry me.

But all cars have strengths and weaknesses. Even when they seem to not to, like maybe the EV6/Ioniq 5, there's still something, in their case, the dealer network. The Q4 is still the only one that I haven't been able to find some sort of negative with, except it's the big brother of the ID.4.

As far as the braking goes, it really depends on what mode/setting combo you’re using.

There are at least 6 settings/combos. Whisper, engage and unbridled. All with and without 1 pedal drive.

Whisper drives like an ICE. Unbridled a lot less smooth. And if 5 mph stop and go, 1 pedal drive is awesome and smooth. You never hit the brakes.

If it isn’t smooth, it’s likely due to a transition from regen braking to regular brakes, but you can change the drive mode if it isn’t to your liking.

 

[dbsb3233]

As far as the braking goes, it really depends on what mode/setting combo you’re using.

There are at least 6 settings/combos. Whisper, engage and unbridled. All with and without 1 pedal drive.

Whisper drives like an ICE. Unbridled a lot less smooth. And if 5 mph stop and go, 1 pedal drive is awesome and smooth. You never hit the brakes.

If it isn’t smooth, it’s likely due to a transition from regen braking to regular brakes, but you can change the drive mode if it isn’t to your liking.

There's one more: L gear. That's turned into my favorite. Sort of a medium regen level that slows you down gently and allows for an easier transition to use the brake pedal for the final stop.

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