Disable Backup Beeping?

[mkhuffman]

I didn't really notice how loud it was until yesterday when I had my window down for a moment while it was in reverse. It needs to be dialed down a little.

I agree, I have a dial that will do just what you want... ?

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[phil]

I always know when my neighbor backs out of her garage (Tesla) Never know when the husband leaves (Honda ICE)

Yes, I hear the next-door neighbor's Tesla, too!

But my neighbor on the other side has a Maserati, and that is much worse. Fortunately, he rarely drives it!

 

[byoungblood]

I agree, I have a dial that will do just what you want... ?

I might just stick a fixed resistor in there. I've only got a few thousand of 'em down in my shop!

 

[mkhuffman]

I might just stick a fixed resistor in there. I've only got a few thousand of 'em down in my shop!

A 10 Watt, 4-8 ohm resistor will do it!

 

[Reign of Ravens]

I find it super obnoxious in most circumstances. We live in a court surrounded by high trees and every one of our neighbors knows when my wife leaves early in the morning. This is one thing that Tesla got right IMO, our neighbor's Telsa just makes a spaceship sound backing out.

I like it on the MME. I wish we could customize it but I'd keep it.

My Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid uses a spaceship-like sound that doesn't really sound very space shippy, and when you reverse you can hear the sound shift from the front to the rear. I feel like nobody outside of the vehicle can hear it. It also doesn't clearly signify which way I'm about to move the vehicle. I prefer the backup beeping.

I never really appreciated the pedestrian sounds until I had an experience driving on a road with a crowd of people walking to a hiking trail. I was in my Nissan Leaf, which was evidently made before the requirements to have pedestrian warning sounds; it would make a backup beep but had no noise when moving forward. I think I followed those people for a full minute before one finally noticed me out of the corner of their eye and then the crowd parted. People legitimately cannot hear electric vehicles moving at slow speeds.

It's a concern in parking areas, as well. I never minded "creeping behind" people in garages because it's just a bit of time I was wasting and it was sort of amusing to think that a huge vehicle was going undetected. But it's one thing when you can see the people in front of you and are moving slowly enough to respond if someone pops out (although I felt the need to be hyper vigilant, more so than when driving any other vehicle); it's another if you're trying to back out and can't fully see because there are cars at your sides, blocking your view. I'd be pretty terrified of backing up without any alert sounds whatsoever. It doesn't help that the MME's reverse light is at the bottom of the car. Seriously, between this and Kia's new trend of putting turn signals at the lower ends of their cars, what's the deal with putting lights in places that aren't obvious and are easily obstructed?

Yeah, I sort of hate announcing to all of my neighbors that I'm backing up (and I have a small ways to go to back up so it goes on for a while), but that's safety.

 

[mkhuffman]

I like it on the MME. I wish we could customize it but I'd keep it.

My Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid uses a spaceship-like sound that doesn't really sound very space shippy, and when you reverse you can hear the sound shift from the front to the rear. I feel like nobody outside of the vehicle can hear it. It also doesn't clearly signify which way I'm about to move the vehicle. I prefer the backup beeping.

I never really appreciated the pedestrian sounds until I had an experience driving on a road with a crowd of people walking to a hiking trail. I was in my Nissan Leaf, which was evidently made before the requirements to have pedestrian warning sounds; it would make a backup beep but had no noise when moving forward. I think I followed those people for a full minute before one finally noticed me out of the corner of their eye and then the crowd parted. People legitimately cannot hear electric vehicles moving at slow speeds.

It's a concern in parking areas, as well. I never minded "creeping behind" people in garages because it's just a bit of time I was wasting and it was sort of amusing to think that a huge vehicle was going undetected. But it's one thing when you can see the people in front of you and are moving slowly enough to respond if someone pops out (although I felt the need to be hyper vigilant, more so than when driving any other vehicle); it's another if you're trying to back out and can't fully see because there are cars at your sides, blocking your view. I'd be pretty terrified of backing up without any alert sounds whatsoever. It doesn't help that the MME's reverse light is at the bottom of the car. Seriously, between this and Kia's new trend of putting turn signals at the lower ends of their cars, what's the deal with putting lights in places that aren't obvious and are easily obstructed?

Yeah, I sort of hate announcing to all of my neighbors that I'm backing up (and I have a small ways to go to back up so it goes on for a while), but that's safety.

I can see everything in front and behind my car. The car also has sensors that warn me when I am getting too close to something. I do not think the super annoying sound makes my car safer, but I understand why others think that. If you feel safer with the noise, you should keep the noise.

The situation you described is exactly why I put a volume control on my pedestrian speaker. If there is a group of oblivious people in front of me and I don't want to wait for them to pay attention to their surroundings, I can turn up the annoying sound and maybe they will notice. I can also lightly tap the horn, which actually works a lot better than the pedestrian speaker.

 

[Reign of Ravens]

I can see everything in front and behind my car.

So can I... but I don't know what I don't know. I recognize that while I am pretty aware of what's going on around me, and I am probably more of a defensive driver than most, there are probably things that I'm missing that I am not even realizing I'm missing. This goes for all of us. Reversing is when our visibility is at its worst, and while I am glad to have all of the various sensors to make sure we don't screw up, they're not fool-proof.

The sounds aren't about making me feel safer, it's about ensuring the safety of those around me. Or if you look at it another way, I suppose you could say it's about making me safer - from a lawsuit, manslaughter charges, and/or having my license revoked.

As I said, I was in the same boat as everyone else initially, thinking that the sounds should be optional and wondering how I could turn them off. Then I had those few experiences where people really had no awareness that I was literally right behind them, crawling along. As if it's not bad enough that most people are distracted as it is. I still wish there were some customization options, but I'm no longer mad that my vehicles have the feature.

 

[dmitry]

I’m scared to imagine the future when on Costco parking lot at rush time will be more EVs and many of them will try to backup at the same time ? With all this weirdo noises it will be a nightmare. Car manufacturers should find a better solution ASAP.

 

[Arjan]

I do agree that leaving the pedestrian sound on is a good idea, but the annoying beeping in reverse needs to go. It must be a Forscan option, we just haven't found it. Maybe the police / ambulance option in Forscan can disable it ?

 

[generaltso]

I do agree that leaving the pedestrian sound on is a good idea, but the annoying beeping in reverse needs to go.

In many parts of the world, backup beeping was replaced years ago by white noise pulses. Apparently it's safer because it's easier to determine where it's coming from and it's less annoying to surrounding buildings. The new Rivian Amazon vans use something similar. I guess Ford didn't get the memo.

 

[mkhuffman]

So can I... but I don't know what I don't know. I recognize that while I am pretty aware of what's going on around me, and I am probably more of a defensive driver than most, there are probably things that I'm missing that I am not even realizing I'm missing. This goes for all of us. Reversing is when our visibility is at its worst, and while I am glad to have all of the various sensors to make sure we don't screw up, they're not fool-proof.

The sounds aren't about making me feel safer, it's about ensuring the safety of those around me. Or if you look at it another way, I suppose you could say it's about making me safer - from a lawsuit, manslaughter charges, and/or having my license revoked.

As I said, I was in the same boat as everyone else initially, thinking that the sounds should be optional and wondering how I could turn them off. Then I had those few experiences where people really had no awareness that I was literally right behind them, crawling along. As if it's not bad enough that most people are distracted as it is. I still wish there were some customization options, but I'm no longer mad that my vehicles have the feature.

Your argument is sound. However, the problem is there are many, many changes we could make that would make our vehicles more safe, but we don't do them for two main reasons: cost and user experience. For example, we can make the MME more safe for everyone if we restrict maximum acceleration so you cannot go from 0-60 in less than 15 seconds. Much safer, right? Do you want that on your car?

Here is another example: the pedestrian speaker is not loud enough, and certainly deaf people cannot hear it. We should make it twice as loud, and all vehicles should have a flashing yellow strobe light on top of the car so deaf people are alerted that you are moving. Will you do that to your MME? You could add a flashing strobe light today and I know a way to increase the pedestrian speaker volume. I can help you do that if you want. Your car will be safer if you make those modifications so I think you should do it.

The safest thing to do is to not drive your car at all. If you are not driving, there is no risk of hitting anyone or anything. So if safety is your top priority, sell your car and buy a bike. But when on your bike you need to have a noise generator and a flashing light to alert pedestrians, because bike accidents have been known to really hurt people. It will be more safe that way.

The bottom line is this: my car is extremely safe without the pedestrian speaker. The negative consequences of that speaker more than offset any minor safety improvement. Just like you won't put a flashing yellow light on top of your car, I don't want mine to make fake noises. It is unnecessary and I have never, ever had a situation where those noises would have made my car actually safer. Never. And I have been driving a long, long time.

 

[awp0]

AFAIK even the quietest ICE cars still don’t require backup sounds. So why couldn’t Ford make the backup speaker produce a “quiet ICE engine sound effect” during backup? The loud steel drum is obnoxious.

 

[Reign of Ravens]

Your argument is sound. However, the problem is there are many, many changes we could make that would make our vehicles more safe, but we don't do them for two main reasons: cost and user experience. For example, we can make the MME more safe for everyone if we restrict maximum acceleration so you cannot go from 0-60 in less than 15 seconds. Much safer, right? Do you want that on your car?

Here is another example: the pedestrian speaker is not loud enough, and certainly deaf people cannot hear it. We should make it twice as loud, and all vehicles should have a flashing yellow strobe light on top of the car so deaf people are alerted that you are moving. Will you do that to your MME? You could add a flashing strobe light today and I know a way to increase the pedestrian speaker volume. I can help you do that if you want. Your car will be safer if you make those modifications so I think you should do it.

While I get what you're saying, your examples aren't at the same level of risk and sacrifice. While the ability to have fast acceleration can be dangerous, it can also be a safety feature (particularly in Hawaii - we have very short on-ramps). As for whether the backup beep should be louder, we're not talking about designing a 100% safe feature, but a feature for the majority. As I said, I have regularly been just a few feet away from people who were totally oblivious to me in my pedestrian warning-less Leaf, and while I can't vouch for their hearing, this is something that the average person cannot hear and is not clued into. At the time I assumed that as silent electric vehicles became more common that people would develop a better awareness and hone in on other sounds associated with moving cars, but the pedestrian warnings sounds make it less likely that there will be injuries and deaths on that learning curve.

The bottom line is this: my car is extremely safe without the pedestrian speaker. The negative consequences of that speaker more than offset any minor safety improvement. Just like you won't put a flashing yellow light on top of your car, I don't want mine to make fake noises. It is unnecessary and I have never, ever had a situation where those noises would have made my car actually safer. Never. And I have been driving a long, long time.

There is increasing awareness that the proportion of pedestrian vs vehicle fatalities have been rising in recent years as the curb weights of vehicles as a whole has been increasing, and that was even before the EV "revolution." That is to say, if someone is hit by a vehicle today it is more likely to be fatal compared with if someone were hit by a car some decades ago. The vehicle is safe for you, the occupant, but it is a hazard to pedestrians around you.

The bigger question is why you care so much about sounds that you can't hear. The backup beep is something you can hear, sure, but I assume you, like everyone else on this forum, are spending a minority of your time in reverse. I sort of get it: I loved the silence of the Leaf and hated the idea of mandated pedestrian sounds, until I realized the implications of that perfect silence. Backup beep aside, I can't hear the pedestrian sound of the Mach-E, although the one on the Pacifica Hybrid is audible from the inside and represents a mild annoyance when active. If it were manually controllable, sure, I'd probably disable it except for in parking lots and other crowded places. But this is really a mild sacrifice to make for a potentially large safety hazard.

I do hope we get some better noises, and possible better-directed noises in the future. When I lived in New York City the din of idle engines would bounce off of buildings. I thought about revisiting the city in a few decades, and how amazing it would be to see so many cars and yet... utter silence (except for an angry horn here and there, because that's New York City). The thought of having engine noises replaced by a chorus of various whirring sounds is a bit nightmarish.

 

[mkhuffman]

But this is really a mild sacrifice to make for a potentially large safety hazard.

The thought of having engine noises replaced by a chorus of various whirring sounds is a bit nightmarish.

I totally disagree that my car is a large safety hazard because the sound is turned off. And since the hearing impaired can't hear the fake sounds coming out of your car, I know you will install a flashing yellow light. Because otherwise, you car is a large safety hazard.

I totally agree with the last part. The fake sounds are louder than the sounds many ICE cars make, and when you have a city full of cars making fake sounds, the noise pollution will be off the charts. And it will drive many people crazy, especially me because I know it is because some master planner decided we all must have fake sounds on our cars.

It is obvious neither one of us will be convinced, so I agree to disagree. I will continue to enjoy my silent car, while you continue to tolerate the sounds yours makes. It's all good.

Difference of opinion is important, I believe. If we all think the same way it will become a very boring and dangerous society in general.

 

[satchel prefect]

Setting aside opinions for a bit, here are some empirical studies.

This is intended for anyone who may be contemplating disabling the warning sound. For those who are completely committed to this path and not turning back: this isn't directed at you.

TLDR: testing has found with high confidence that electrified/quiet vehicles are more likely to be involved in a pedestrian or cyclist accident than their ICE equivalents.

NHTSA 2009 and 2011 studies (https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811526.pdf)

2009 study

In 2009 the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration released the report “Incidence of Pedestrian and Bicyclist Crashes by Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicles” with the finding that an HE vehicle was two times more likely to be involved in a pedestrian crash than an ICE vehicle in situations involving low-speed maneuvers (Hanna, 2009).​

2011 follow up study, applying more rigor and comparing ICE and hybrid versions of the Camry, Civic, and Accord, and the Corolla versus the Prius

Overall, the odds ratios indicate that the odds of an HE vehicle being in either a pedestrian or bicycle crash are greater than the odds of an ICE vehicle being in a similar crash with odds ratios of 1.35 and 1.57 respectively, both of which are statistically significant with p-values under 0.01 percent.​

Simulation study based on BEVs, non-NHTSA (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0968090X18307472)

According to the analysis, electric vehicles have a 30% higher pedestrian traffic safety risk than internal combustion engine vehicles under high ambient sound levels. At low ambient sound levels, however, electric vehicles have only a 10% higher safety risk for pedestrians. Low levels of ambient illumination also increase the number of pedestrians involved in near-crashes for both electric vehicles and combustion engine vehicles.​

There may be other publications contradicting these or ones that are entirely inconclusive at the specified confidence levels, though I didn't see any compelling ones in my search results. For any who may be unfamiliar with hypothesis testing, the p-value mentioned in the 2011 passage represents probability that despite the numerical evidence, there is actually no difference between ICE and electrified vehicles--and in this case it was less than one hundredth of one percent.

We're not always fortunate enough to share unrestricted line of sight with bystanders or have guarantees that those bystanders won't move suddenly when assuming the coast is clear. This is probably just a slice of the increased odds mentioned in the NHTSA studies. The car is equipped to provide fair warning with no effort on your part--maybe an opportunity for someone to pause, whether instinctively or consciously, before darting into your path.

For you not to have noticed a pedestrian, cyclist, or furry friend before they shot into your path is likely defensible, at least from a moral perspective if not a legal one. But actively preventing them from hearing you is a different proposition.

So that's the risk side of the equation: higher probability of a very undesirable outcome, however unlikely it may be. It's probably mitigated to some degree by the various anti-collision measures that the car has, but if those were 100% effective, I submit we would have lots of complaints about phantom braking since the sensors would be tuned to stop if in any doubt whatsoever.

Now for the reward side of disabling or impairing the pedestrian warning system (at least in the US): removing a source of noise equivalent to an electric toothbrush or a dishwasher. The slow rolling whir is restricted to 71 dba at 30 km/h and 54 dba when stationary, and of course above 20 mph the sound is gone.

If one still considers that sound pollution, we're probably looking at a 25 foot radius at most, and only during conditions where ICE vehicles are producing no shortage of noise already. I don't have any citations for this one, though I do have a sound level meter that I may tinker with. The warning sound sure seems quieter than the under-hood fan that comes on with the A/C.

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