Electrify America kWh Pricing Announced

[ChasingCoral]

What address would I choose for what? If I were going to eat at Gyu-Kaku BBQ I'd choose the address of the charger at 1701 Wewatta St.

Would I leave halfway through my meal? I already answered that at
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/ea-kwh-pricing-announced.1413/post-35624
Besides, the charger near Gyu-Kaku BBQ is a 50 kW, so it would be about right to charge over dinner as I already said.

Why would I want a charger in Rawlins, WY when I'm hungry in Denver?

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[ChasingCoral]

Lots of issues here. First, we're mainly talking EA 150+ chargers. Tweener chargers like 25 or 50 kW are a little different, although still likely cost as much as 5 or more L2s. Again, there's limited $$$ and it's about priorities.

Second, of course people "might like to charge" at a DCFC station. ANYWHERE. Hell, BEV drivers would love one every mile. But again... limited resources and priorities.

Third, downtown parking is usually both precious space, and expensive. Suppose you're NOT eating at one of those restaurants and are just passing through, but need a "fast" charge. Isn't the placement of DCFC better at an off-ramp where they can serve both of those drivers instead of only the downtown dinner-eater? I'm guessing your answer will be "Put DCFC in BOTH places!". But again... limited resources and priorities.

Tim, I really don't understand why you think this is so hard. I picked DCFC locations that already exist in walking distance of dining. You want me to do the same for another city? Do you want to specify the charging rate? I seem to recall you don't drive a BEV rate, so I can understand you don't have experience with this sort of thing yet. However, some of us have been driving a BEV for a couple of years and have had the pleasure of driving 10 minutes off the Interstate to find a DCFC at a nice restaurant and had a meal there. You know what, it actually worked out very nicely.

 

[dbsb3233]

Tim, I really don't understand why you think this is so hard. I picked DCFC locations that already exist in walking distance of dining. You want me to do the same for another city? Do you want to specify the charging rate? I seem to recall you don't drive a BEV rate, so I can understand you don't have experience with this sort of thing yet. However, some of us have been driving a BEV for a couple of years and have had the pleasure of driving 10 minutes off the Interstate to find a DCFC at a nice restaurant and had a meal there. You know what, it actually worked out very nicely.

Don't really need the "Oh you don't own one yet so you can't know" talk. But I'll look past that one this time.

Of course any BEV driver would love chargers there. And EVERYWHERE. I already addressed that. And that's not possible. What we're discussing is what we each think is the most useful overall placement design with LIMITED RESOURCES to spend. Choice A or choice B (not both). 5-10 L2s or one L3.

Yes, near highways is precisely what I've been saying is where they need to go, because it's mostly travelers (not locals) that need fast DCFC. And if there's one or more restaurants close to the highway, all the better. That's exactly what I've been saying.

You're downtown example I take a bit more exception with though because I don't think expensive downtowns are the best fit for travelers passing through to charge (which again, should be the main customer base - travelers, not locals). There's probably 500 restaurant locations along I-25 that aren't quite so high rent as downtown.

 

[dbsb3233]

Why would I want a charger in Rawlins, WY when I'm hungry in Denver?

The point was obviously that making it even POSSIBLE to traverse I-80 is far more important than just being able to charge at a specific downtown restaurant area in a city that already has many DCFC chargers. BEV travelers can already make it thru Denver just fine. They can't make it across I-80 through. That should be the higher priority.

 

[ajmartineau]

I'd rather have one in Billings, Montana. Before I owned a BEV I thought I needed L3 everywhere. Now I know I rarely use them. It's only when I'm more than 100 miles from home. It's a shame I can't DCFC across I-90 coast to coast. Hopefully in the next phase.

I look forward to when WE owners can control charge speed. I don't always want to be charging at the max curve or at 50kWh. I want to be able to pick whatever speed is going to get the charge I need in the time I will be away from the vehicle.

Example:
Me eating dinner or on an hour run. I want the car to go from whatever the state of charge is to 80%. I'd like to be able to set that charging speed manually or let the car calculate it and set it. Ultra-fast DCFC is hard on your battery. (Ask Tesla owners with an older 85kWh battery that have been throttled by Elon about it.)

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

The point was obviously that making it even POSSIBLE to traverse I-80 is far more important than just being able to charge at a specific downtown restaurant area in a city that already has many DCFC chargers.

Actually no it's not. It is just important to different people at different times.

If I'm driving on U.S. 101 from Santa Maria to Eureka, a trip I've done many times, I'm looking for a decent place to eat and not the McD's selling industrialized heart attack pills inside the Wal-Mart because there's a 150 kWh DCFC outside. I'll take the 50 kWh DCFC while I have a real meal in the Almaden section of San Jose, or detour on CR 17 to Ben Lomond.

Or when people come down from Portland to visit us at our place in Central Oregon, they like to charge up near the restaurants by the river rather than the EA charger near the Taco Bell off I-5 in Salem.

Wanting chargers off the various interstates is fine and dandy. But it's not a mutually exclusive choice. Not only do we want both, we need to have both or BEV's will remain a niche product and the MMS will be little more than a compliance car. And your choice for all other BEVS will be Tesla. In any color you want as long as the quality control is crappy.

Or we can argue our own little parochial viewpoints and come to no agreement whastoever. If that's the case, then I don't care if a single North South Route other than I-5 ever has 150 kWh DCFC or not. I'll never drive them. Same with 1-90, I-10, I-40 or I-80. In fact, I rather resent the fact that VW was effectively fined billions of dollars for fraud and not a cent is going to Hawaii where I do 90% of my driving (and where they also committed fraud, just like in the mainland)..

See how that doesn't work? It's much better to go with the high speed DCFC along major arteries and lower powered level 3's pretty much everywhere. Because that's what's needed. And neither is more important.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Don't be so obtuse.

Fremont, Ca; Santa Cruz, Ca; Scotts Valley, Ca; Los Gatos, Ca. All suburban locations. All with SuperCharger stations and all less than 55 miles from each other.

DCFC, it's not just for the interstates anymore.

 

[ChasingCoral]

My point was simply this: there is value to placement of chargers in various locations, various strategies, to solve the various needs of drivers. Everyone buying a BEV is not doing a cannonball run across the country, needing nothing but the absolute minimum charging time at the absolute minimum distance off Interstates. Neither is every BEV driver just tootling around town running errands and switching to an ICE for road trips.

In my experience driving a BEV with only 100 miles range, including road trips, I have found great value in multiple placements of chargers. The experience of road tripping differently provides insights into what can work that I didn't realize until I tried it.

I've used a strategically chosen L2 to do a leisurely fill while going for a hike. An L2 can make an unlikely destination a great new find. L2s are cheap and easy to install, attracting longer stays at destinations or making destinations more palatable for BEV drivers.

I've used DCFCs located in tollroad or Interstate rest areas -- great for road trips when you want to keep the stops short and with rest rooms, coffee, fast food and internet to kill the time of a minimized stop.

I've also gone 5-10 minutes out of my way to find a DCFC in a shopping center or the downtown of a small town with real restaurants serving real food. If I'm going to wait 45 minutes on the charge, I'll drive a little farther to a nice Italian restaurant for eggplant parmigiana over a Big Mac, especially since the latter leaves you with downtime in a beautifully scenic Golden Arches with screaming kids and asphalt as far as the eye can see (which is probably to the BK next door). 45 minutes for a nice lunch -- yeah, that's about right. I already answered the question about getting up during dinner. You don't need to ask the question again, just read the answer -- and the responses that show others agree.

As far as installation investments, I'm glad your figures are way off @JayTee, as average installation of a DCFC is only $50,000 not $0.5M like you cited (https://www.propertymanagerinsider.com/how-much-do-ev-charging-stations-cost/). Many of these may be mid-range speeds like 50kW chargers but that can be OK for many urban needs. They are often single charger installations. However, once you have the utilities set for one of these, adding a couple of L2s provides more service and more options for different kinds of charging.

Even 4-6 charger installations used for service plazas, service stations, and other places looking to serve multiple drivers simultaneously average $350,000 (https://insideevs.com/news/444567/electrify-america-new-lower-rates/). I'm really curious where you got your $0.5M cost for single chargers you cited above @JayTee.

The point here is we need EV charging infrastructure to provide for many needs. I'm glad different companies are taking different approaches or multiple approaches:

Truck stops are good choices:
https://www.govtech.com/transportation/Electric-Vehicle-Charging-Stations-Coming-to-Truck-Stops.html
https://www.loves.com/en/news/2020/...nounces-collaboration-with-loves-travel-stops

Cities are good choices too:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33482761/gm-evgo-2700-fast-charging-stations/
Remember, they can be stops along routes as well as serving the needs of BEV owners who can't charge at home.

May we please go back to productive discussions about the full range of needs BEV drivers have and the infrastructure the US needs to get there? We really don't need ALL CAP YELLING to make points and we certainly don't need diatribes about how there is only one need for charging infrastructure because there is only one problem that we all have.

We don't all have the same BEV charging needs. We have lots of needs. There are many ways to solve them and I'm glad a diversity of approaches are being taken.

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