EV6 Launch, Ionic 5 Drive, Polestar 2 Vs MME

ElectrifyCLT

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Only the e-tron GT is 800v as it shares the taycan platform the suv e-tron which runs the constant 150kw is 400v. With 400v you could go tesla style and cram a load in when charge in the pack is low and rapidly taper down or just run a consistent rate up to 80%.

Sure the mach-e will never match a 800v system but it should be able to do a lot better than is currently is and run @ 150kw for a lot longer than it currently does and take advantage of the big buffer, otherwise just leave it as is and reduce the buffer size to add more range.

Ford for what ever reason are being ultra conservative and still have not fully let go the shackles of compliance mentality where its all about charge at home and use it for local trips.

Doh, struck once again by the awful Audi EV naming conventions. Youā€™re right, I apologize.
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ElectrifyCLT

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There's literally a post earlier in this thread complaining about it and implying the Mach-E shouldn't have any curve at all.

Honestly all the constant bitching gets old, especially when there's obvious hypocracy.
Thatā€™s not exactly what the post suggests. Itā€˜s suggesting a thermal curve rather than a curve that is solely based on SOC. The Taycan does this really well, where it actually gets the battery red hot to receive maximum current for as long as possible (you can program the nav to precondition the battery as you approach a DC fast charger). Essentially, the curve varies on the condition of the battery.

If you see it as bitching, click ignore on the thread. As more and more EVs hit the market, thereā€™s more data points on how other companies are handling charging and charging curves. There are trade offs with nearly every approach, and itā€™s clear that Ford is being more conservative than most.

Is the charging performance in line with their marketing? Yes.

Does that mean that there isnā€™t room for improvement and to settle for their solution if you desire more performance? No.

Is it fair to say that ID4, E-Tron, EV6, and Ioniq5 charging is objectively ā€œbetterā€? Also yes, if you think that charging at a faster, more consistent rate is a competitive advantage. Itā€™s fair to make that comparison since theyā€™re all more or less in the price range of the Mach E.

Weā€™re all clearly fans of the Mach E, thatā€™s why we are here. But letā€™s not act like this is the perfect, best optimized solution in the industry. If you want to tell yourself that, be my guest. But I think the industry is showing that thereā€™s clearly opportunity to improve charging (hopefully via software).
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Thatā€™s not exactly what the post suggests. Itā€˜s suggesting a thermal curve rather than a curve that is solely based on SOC. The Taycan does this really well, where it actually gets the battery red hot to receive maximum current for as long as possible (you can program the nav to precondition the battery as you approach a DC fast charger). Essentially, the curve varies on the condition of the battery.

If you see it as bitching, click ignore on the thread. As more and more EVs hit the market, thereā€™s more data points on how other companies are handling charging and charging curves. There are trade offs with nearly every approach, and itā€™s clear that Ford is being more conservative than most.

Is the charging performance in line with their marketing? Yes.

Does that mean that there isnā€™t room for improvement and to settle for their solution if you desire more performance? No.

Is it fair to say that ID4, E-Tron, EV6, and Ioniq5 charging is objectively ā€œbetterā€? Also yes, if you think that charging at a faster, more consistent rate is a competitive advantage. Itā€™s fair to make that comparison since theyā€™re all more or less in the price range of the Mach E.

Weā€™re all clearly fans of the Mach E, thatā€™s why we are here. But letā€™s not act like this is the perfect, best optimized solution in the industry. If you want to tell yourself that, be my guest. But I think the industry is showing that thereā€™s clearly opportunity to improve charging (hopefully via software).
There are enough people on here that are not fans of the Mach-E and whine about it constantly. Some of them have metallic names, some insist class action lawsuits must happen, and some won't stop talking about key fobs in seemingly every thread.

Heat degrades batteries. We have no idea yet if Porsche (aka VW) is being too aggressive with their curve right now and won't know for a few years yet. Most owners will have moved on by then, their leases long ended.

The thing that people seem to forget is that Ford was making PHEVs and EVs for years before VW or Hyundai went there. They have more experience than VW and Hyundai put together. I am sure it was not a random, drunken decision to do things as Ford did.

400V vs 800V is a difference that helps with speed for sure. But ignoring the experience Ford had before deciding on the curve is problematic at best. Will it change? Probably, after they have enough info on how these packs, in this vehicle, perform, but if they don't, it won't be the end of the world. And realistically, it's not likely to influence too many purchasing decisions, any more than the lack of a frunk or lower range will stop someone from choosing an ID.4 or lack of a hatch will stop the choice of an EV6.
 

silverelan

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There are enough people on here that are not fans of the Mach-E and whine about it constantly. Some of them have metallic names, some insist class action lawsuits must happen, and some won't stop talking about key fobs in seemingly every thread.

Heat degrades batteries. We have no idea yet if Porsche (aka VW) is being too aggressive with their curve right now and won't know for a few years yet. Most owners will have moved on by then, their leases long ended.

The thing that people seem to forget is that Ford was making PHEVs and EVs for years before VW or Hyundai went there. They have more experience than VW and Hyundai put together. I am sure it was not a random, drunken decision to do things as Ford did.

400V vs 800V is a difference that helps with speed for sure. But ignoring the experience Ford had before deciding on the curve is problematic at best. Will it change? Probably, after they have enough info on how these packs, in this vehicle, perform, but if they don't, it won't be the end of the world. And realistically, it's not likely to influence too many purchasing decisions, any more than the lack of a frunk or lower range will stop someone from choosing an ID.4 or lack of a hatch will stop the choice of an EV6.
Gotcha. Yeah, sarcasm isn't the easiest thing to convey on the internets. /s ?

As I said in my comparison post, the percentages really look lopsided but maybe not as bad as you'd think when you convert that to time.

If you figure 2.8mi/kWh for both cars, it would take about 19mins to get the 35kWh to move the MME ER another 100mi down the road vs. 10 mins for the EV6. That's just a 9 minutes difference over a distance of say 350 miles or so with a single charge session.

As near as I can figure, the MME has the same cells as the ID4 so if VW figures something out to improve the charging speed, it is possible that Ford could replicate it.
 

ElectrifyCLT

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Heat degrades batteries. We have no idea yet if Porsche (aka VW) is being too aggressive with their curve right now and won't know for a few years yet. Most owners will have moved on by then, their leases long ended.

The thing that people seem to forget is that Ford was making PHEVs and EVs for years before VW or Hyundai went there. They have more experience than VW and Hyundai put together. I am sure it was not a random, drunken decision to do things as Ford did.
Yeah totally agreed on aggressive/conservative. Back to my point about trade offs. Heat the battery to get max current into it as quickly as possible Vs. longevity. Also agreed that time will only tell.

Itā€™s also a fair point about Fords experience in the space. But these packs, while fundamentally similar technology, are also quite different. As is the trade off in conservative curves vs. aggressive when scaled up to larger packs.

Being conservative with a 17kwh pack in a PHEV may only have a few minutes of a trade off. But scale that up to 88KWH usable and the impact of being too conservative is amplified. I think itā€™s just as likely that VW is being too aggressive as is Ford being too conservative. BUT the charging ā€œcurveā€ in the Mach E has a couple hard cliffs (Notably the ~35% and 80% cliffs).

Ford Mustang Mach-E EV6 Launch, Ionic 5 Drive, Polestar 2 Vs MME B814EABB-E380-4419-8C7C-9DEBE265729A


Thereā€™s no technical reason a pack can take ~60kwh of juice at 79% SOC then suddenly 12KWH at 81% SOC (if there is, thereā€™s a serious engineering trade off that was made). Thatā€™s just blatent conservatism. Itā€™s also not a curve. Iā€™m not accusing Ford of picking it our of the blue, but itā€™s really not a curve right now. Itā€™s a step ladder. A true curve would A: Make things faster overall and B: be a bit more competitive with more aggressive curves (assuming their data shows itā€™s possible).

We can agree to disagree, but Iā€™m all for pushing for better (especially when it can be improved with software) where thereā€™s opportunity.

No one will buy an EV purely for the charging dynamics, I agree with you. But you better believe that VW will start showing how independent testers can cover the same distance in the same time of higher range EVs in an ID4 through faster charging.
 


Cricri67

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From personal experience, the charge of the Ioniq 5 is really fast (if you find an Ionity Superfast charger here in Europe). What is impressive is that it stays at full rate without decreasing until it reaches 80% (so it is not just a peak at >220kW, it can be sustained).

What is even nicer in France is that the cost at the charging station is per minute and not per kW, which means that the 10-80 cost me around 5ā‚¬ ?

Ford Mustang Mach-E EV6 Launch, Ionic 5 Drive, Polestar 2 Vs MME IMG_0076
 

praxiscat

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I MAY have gotten the Ioniq 5 or EV6 if it was available, but these got delayed until 2022 for the US market, and even then it may have take until 2023 to finally land one. I am not going to lie, these were really close with the MME in my head (more so than the Model Y). But a bird in hand is better than two in the bush so to speak. I had the opportunity to buy a MME ER AWD so I jumped on it. No regrets. Likewise that slower fast charge curve is not a big deal to me personally.

I would imagine for my next EV in 5 years this will all work out. It maybe a Hyundia motor group EV (Genesis, Kia, or Hyundia), it maybe another MME. It maybe something else.

It is clear that Hyundia is ahead on this, but they are on what, the second or third gen of their EVs. They have had them around for awhile.
 

silverelan

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I MAY have gotten the Ioniq 5 or EV6 if it was available, but these got delayed until 2022 for the US market, and even then it may have take until 2023 to finally land one. I am not going to lie, these were really close with the MME in my head (more so than the Model Y). But a bird in hand is better than two in the bush so to speak. I had the opportunity to buy a MME ER AWD so I jumped on it. No regrets. Likewise that slower fast charge curve is not a big deal to me personally.

I would imagine for my next EV in 5 years this will all work out. It maybe a Hyundia motor group EV (Genesis, Kia, or Hyundia), it maybe another MME. It maybe something else.

It is clear that Hyundia is ahead on this, but they are on what, the second or third gen of their EVs. They have had them around for awhile.
The good news is that it sounds like there's going to be some changes to the MME's fast charging.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...-threshold-increases-coming-this-winter.9508/
 

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Was at launch of EV6 today.
Test drove an Ionic5 RWD last week.
Was on Polestar 2 launch last year.
Own First Edition MME.

The Ionic and EV6 both share the same platform and tech, but they wrap and present it all.very differently. The Ionic is bit like the economy version (well the base model is).

It had all the tech, but feels budget. Plastic feel to panels. Colour wasn't great. Inside controls in a cream, roofline in white. Just didn't hang together too well.

Lane control was less relaxing and predictive, but I Drive and option to use 4 settings for regen is great. Also love the fast charging and 3 pin power options, inside and out.

Seat control's are better than an MME and are very comfy. The top of the range will be superb. Poor show by Ford, although not too uncomfy.

The EV6 was a pre-production car. Battery not charged and no test drives (obviously). Shame. First impressions are great, plus nice reveal at the Kia dealership.

I turned up in my MME and parked in the Ford part of the Ford/King dealership to see a handover taking place of a white RWD MME, so wanderers over to congratulate the new family who were taking the keys to their new toy.

The salesperson asked if I was seeing the correct mileage, to which I replied 'Not yet'. I also advised that I love OFD and how to use it.

Anyway, back to the EV6. Looks great. Quick talk/intro, then a chance to dive inside. Looks and feels as good, if not better, than the MME. Lower headline. Bigger central unit, but we'll laid out and easy to use.

Same controls as Ionic, but in a black console that looks classy and well thought through. Different switchgear and also using a wheel to select gears, rather then a stalk on the steering column in the Ionic5.

Rear entry is a little more awkward due to low roofline and solid roof could be more claustrophobic, but it has worked on many millions of cars for years, so I am sure it will be OK.

Charger is at the right rear, and has the option to charge other EV's or run a TV, etc. Need to be careful how you close it, otherwise it could break (their words, not mine).

One other strong point is it's towing capacity. Very impressive and still expect a 260 mile range, from this newly WLTL tested car that promises 326 miles.

Colour wasn't my choice, but many options and they all look good. The line up is looking strong and they have a good pedigree and rra k record so far.

Lookout Ford.

Finally, the Polestar 2. I drove this last year at the Launch in the UK. Car was good, but very Volvo. Didn't excite, but wasn't bad. Centre console was big, but not dissimilar to the MME. The acceleration, likewise, was good, but not thrilling. Didn't seem to push you back in the seat like the MME. The EV6 and MME GT lines should both over deliver on this front.

The advantage with all of these models over a Tesla S or 3 is that they are hatchbacks. With 4 dogs this matters to me. The Polestar is possibly the best option here, marginally ahead of the MME. The Ionic felt big and the EV6 is deep ( and bigger), but I'm happy with the height and depth of the MME with the lower level in use.

The Frank on the EV6 is tiny. The Ionic 5 is better, but the MME is better, although remote opening will be a god send when it finally arrives.

So, to sum it up, they are all compromises. Pick the one that fits you best and be happy. I had s spirited drive there and got 4.4 miles per Kwh ( best so far). Threw it down some well known country lanes and it was excellent.

I got back into it to drive home and liked the more upright position and felt happy with my choice. The wife loves It, so despite some teething issues, which I am guessing some of the others may also have, I am glad I have Mach E and am looking forward to many years of comfy and occasionally quick driving.

Ford Mustang Mach-E EV6 Launch, Ionic 5 Drive, Polestar 2 Vs MME IMG_0076


Ford Mustang Mach-E EV6 Launch, Ionic 5 Drive, Polestar 2 Vs MME IMG_0076


Ford Mustang Mach-E EV6 Launch, Ionic 5 Drive, Polestar 2 Vs MME IMG_0076


Ford Mustang Mach-E EV6 Launch, Ionic 5 Drive, Polestar 2 Vs MME IMG_0076
EV6 (and Ioniq 5) lack rear wipers, which is a big negative as far as I'm concerned, especially as I've heard the EV6 already is a bit challenged as far as rear visibility. That was one thing that turned me off of the EV6; the actual rear design was another, as were the "color" choices available for the launch version (dark silver, light silver, or taxicab yellow) and the timeframe for actually getting a car.
 
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Trevor

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EV6 (and Ioniq 5) lack rear wipers, which is a big negative as far as I'm concerned, especially as I've heard the EV6 already is a bit challenged as far as rear visibility. That was one thing that turned me off of the EV6; the actual rear design was another, as were the "color" choices available for the launch version (dark silver, light silver, or taxicab yellow) and the timeframe for actually getting a car.
True, there isn't a rear wiper, but the airflow cleans and dries it when at speed. A bit like rained. In reality, rear view from all of them isn't perfect and Ionic seemed better than the MME. The fact that the MME swings from the bottom means it cleans an area at the base of the window and misses loads at the top. Why not just put a bigger blade on it.

They are ALL compromises, so just pick one and go with that. Most of us here picked the MME, but that just denetes the compromises we were prepared to go with.

For me it was get one in 2 weeks. Get a high build quality, but pay about Ā£10k more to do this. Oh, and the wife loved the carbonised grey.
 

machefan

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That EV6 is sharp!
Sharp if you are going for an updated Nissan Leaf look, not nearly as sharp as the MME or unique.

PROS:
Heat pump (mitigates energy loss in cold climates)
800v DC fast charge provides up to 210 miles in only 18 minutes. (One still has to seek a place to charge that fast)
0-60 MPH in 5.2 seconds depending on trim selected
Load ports allow you to use your EV6 as a charger or to power electric devices (tricky wording here)

CONS:
The Kia EV6 offers two battery sizes: a 58.0-kWh and a 77.4-kWh pack.
Targeted range via 77.4 kWh battery (What will the real word numbers be?)
$58,500 MSRP (First Edition) - Where have I heard that name before? ?
Color combo's and or body color is limited for the release

What did I miss folks?
 

Unexplainedbacon

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Sharp if you are going for an updated Nissan Leaf look, not nearly as sharp as the MME or unique.

PROS:
Heat pump (mitigates energy loss in cold climates)
800v DC fast charge provides up to 210 miles in only 18 minutes. (One still has to seek a place to charge that fast)
0-60 MPH in 5.2 seconds depending on trim selected
Load ports allow you to use your EV6 as a charger or to power electric devices (tricky wording here)

CONS:
The Kia EV6 offers two battery sizes: a 58.0-kWh and a 77.4-kWh pack.
Targeted range via 77.4 kWh battery (What will the real word numbers be?)
$58,500 MSRP (First Edition) - Where have I heard that name before? ?
Color combo's and or body color is limited for the release

What did I miss folks?
My question is how will the EV6 GT compare to MMEGT in both performance and price. At 58k for the launch edition I wonder if the pricing will be comparable
 
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Trevor

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My question is how will the EV6 GT compare to MMEGT in both performance and price. At 58k for the launch edition I wonder if the pricing will be comparable
I think the EV6 GT is about Ā£58k, so they win.
 

silverelan

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Sharp if you are going for an updated Nissan Leaf look, not nearly as sharp as the MME or unique.

PROS:
Heat pump (mitigates energy loss in cold climates)
800v DC fast charge provides up to 210 miles in only 18 minutes. (One still has to seek a place to charge that fast)
0-60 MPH in 5.2 seconds depending on trim selected
Load ports allow you to use your EV6 as a charger or to power electric devices (tricky wording here)

CONS:
The Kia EV6 offers two battery sizes: a 58.0-kWh and a 77.4-kWh pack.
Targeted range via 77.4 kWh battery (What will the real word numbers be?)
$58,500 MSRP (First Edition) - Where have I heard that name before? ?
Color combo's and or body color is limited for the release

What did I miss folks?
Pros:
Front motor decoupling for economy running.
Augmented Reality HUD.
Side view camera display on the driver binnacle when signaling.
Excellent vehicle information displays - charging kW, drivetrain usage, etc.
255 width tires for some beefy lateral grip.
6.9" of ground clearance.
Ventilated/heated front seats.
Heated rear seats.
14 speaker Meridian audio system with subwoofer.
Sun roof that opens above the front seats.

Cons:
No Plug & Charge.
Poor visibility out the rear.
Polarizing looks from the back.
Basic infotainment system.
Piano black interior trim.
No glass roof for back seats.
Small second row passenger windows.
Missing rear window wiper.
 

SpaceEVDriver

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I made the mistake of showing DW the EV6. Now she wants me to get the F150 Lightning and she wants to wait for the EV6 to be put through its paces here in the US before we decide between the Mustang and the EV6.

I really like the looks and specs of the EV6. I really like the looks and specs of the Mustang. I've wanted a new pony car since I stupidly got rid of my '68 Cougar so many years ago. May have to wait a few more years. ;(
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