Fast Charging While It's Cold Outside

[timbop]

Ford unofficially hinted ... they are behind schedule getting these updates out the door as promised.

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[ChasingCoral]

Until Ford pushes an update to actually enable battery preconditioning, you are not going to see anything near the rated 150KW changing speeds.

For the rest of you reading this, feel free to ignore these doomsayers on the Forum. Having hit charging speeds over 150 kW repeatedly, I can assure you it already happens and was even doing so back in February when conditions were other chilly. Yes, battery pre-conditioning would be a welcome addition. No, you won't have to wait for new software to see that initial charge peak over 150kW.

 

[TheVirtualTim]

Don't be afraid to call the number of on the charger for Electrify America support. I realize many (most?) call center experiences are typically terrible ... but EA is actually pretty good. They answer the phone quickly and are very friendly.

I've called them (twice now) regarding stations and they reboot it. It takes a minute. You wont be in some hold-queue-from-hell.

 

[DaMeatMan]

For the rest of you reading this, feel free to ignore these doomsayers on the Forum. Having hit charging speeds over 150 kW repeatedly, I can assure you it already happens and was even doing so back in February when conditions were other chilly. Yes, battery pre-conditioning would be a welcome addition. No, you won't have to wait for new software to see that initial charge peak over 150kW.

Not sure why you had to go there with the "doom sayers" commentary, as I'm just stating a known fact that a cold soaked battery will NOT charge at peak rates. The BMS will simply not allow it as doing so will damage the battery depending on how cold it is. So the BMS allows different rates of charge at different temperature ranges, which again is just a fact and not fear mongering.

You can see this in pretty much any real world cold weather test, from Bjorn Nyland or anyone else who routinely does this sort of testing. I realize that the word "Cold" is pretty subjective based on where you live, but when I say "cold" or "cold soaked" understand I'm not talking about about a mild 5c - 10c (41f - 50f). I'm talking middle of the winter Canadian weather (which is where I live by the way), and we see anywhere from as low as -40c to a nice balmy -10c in the middle of the winter.

With that said, I'm quite intersted to know what the actual temp was when you took those pics? Was your car parked outside and not plugged in overnight before doing so (as many people with apartments/condos do, and how long were you driving before you plugged in so we can guage how much time the vehicle had to warm the pack?

You say "doomsayer" and I say your essentially giving people (particularly new EV drivers) unrealistic expectations of what they will actually see in the middle of an actual cold winter charging session.

 

[DaMeatMan]

For the rest of you reading this, feel free to ignore these doomsayers on the Forum. Having hit charging speeds over 150 kW repeatedly, I can assure you it already happens and was even doing so back in February when conditions were other chilly. Yes, battery pre-conditioning would be a welcome addition. No, you won't have to wait for new software to see that initial charge peak over 150kW.

This is what a DC "fast charge" session looks like on a 50kw charger when it's just 0c and the battery is cold.

I live in a condo and I charge here almost 100% of the time, and during the summer I am able to hit the peak of what this charger is capable of 45kw - 48kw sustained continually for the entire charge session up until 80%.

As you can see in the charge curve even though it's barely freezing at 0c, the car charges significantly slower at an average of around only 30kw. I have yet to see what it actually looks like in the middle of the winter when it's -15 or lower out, but i guarantee you it will not be better, and will likely be slower.

So don't try to tell me or anyone else that the Mach-E can fast charge at it's peak limit of 150kw without battery preconditioning to warm the pack when it's cold out! That's just plain snake oil!

So again, until Ford pushes an update that actually enables battery preconditioning (before arriving at the charger) to warm the pack such that it can actually accelt higher rates of charge, this is likely what one should expect in the real world under similar conditions today.

 

[ChasingCoral]

@DaMeatMan: Your posts are now making it clear you meant preconditioning was needed for cold weather charging. Your earlier post

Until Ford pushes an update to actually enable battery preconditioning, you are not going to see anything near the rated 150KW changing speeds.

didn’t mention post until the third paragraph and made it sound like an “also”, not a part of your initial paragraph. I now see what you meant to say and that makes a lot more sense.

 

[DaMeatMan]

@DaMeatMan: Your posts are now making it clear you meant preconditioning was needed for cold weather charging. Your earlier post

didn’t mention post until the third paragraph and made it sound like an “also”, not a part of your initial paragraph. I now see what you meant to say and that makes a lot more sense.

I was commenting on an OP that reads "Fast Charging while it's Cold outside" which starts with their observation that charging was much slower than expected in the cold. With that said I thought it should be pretty obvious what I'm commenting on with regards to the need for battery preconditioning to be enabled via an OTA update in order to see better fast charging results when cold out. Hopefully Ford gets on this sooner rather than later, particularly when it would do little good if delivered sometime in the spring and is urgently needed before we find ourselves in the midst of winter weather.

 

[ChasingCoral]

You are right. I am very

I was commenting on an OP that reads "Fast Charging while it's Cold outside" which starts with their observation that charging was much slower than expected in the cold. With that said I thought it should be pretty obvious what I'm commenting on with regards to the need for battery preconditioning to be enabled via an OTA update in order to see better fast charging results when cold out. Hopefully Ford gets on this sooner rather than later, particularly when it would do little good if delivered sometime in the spring and is urgently needed before we find ourselves in the midst of winter weather.

Sorry that I didn’t realize threads on the Forum never go off-topic. I should have known your unqualified statement must have had the multiple paragraphs of qualifications you have since added (dripping with sarcasm if that wasn’t clear).

 

[Shayne]

This is what a DC "fast charge" session looks like on a 50kw charger when it's just 0c and the battery is cold.

I live in a condo and I charge here almost 100% of the time, and during the summer I am able to hit the peak of what this charger is capable of 45kw - 48kw sustained continually for the entire charge session up until 80%.

As you can see in the charge curve even though it's barely freezing at 0c, the car charges significantly slower at an average of around only 30kw. I have yet to see what it actually looks like in the middle of the winter when it's -15 or lower out, but i guarantee you it will not be better, and will likely be slower.

So don't try to tell me or anyone else that the Mach-E can fast charge at it's peak limit of 150kw without battery preconditioning to warm the pack when it's cold out! That's just plain snake oil!

So again, until Ford pushes an update that actually enables battery preconditioning (before arriving at the charger) to warm the pack such that it can actually accelt higher rates of charge, this is likely what one should expect in the real world under similar conditions today.

Not sure if it was driven to warm it up before charging or just driven 1/4 mile cold. Turn the hvac off and give it hell . I will be at a 50 KW next week after 175 km so will see. It will not be that cold only -4C I hope. In the summer it was up to 47 kw. Seem to remember last year at -15C it was OK but it was run on a divided highway before? This is common and has been talked about. With tesla they use to floor it like bunny hopping to warm it up a bit before hitting the supercharger. Take it for a bit of a rip before and see if it helps?

Talking to the condo board about putting in a few 240V's could solve the problem and be cheaper and easier on the battery pack. That would be my go to and would be looking to hit up a green board member .

 

[noway]

Some tests done with -20C.. the car will never heat the battery when DC charging above 60%, and the heater is so slow that it is almost no point of using a HPC, however, it will when AC charging even at 99%, but it might require the full 11kW power to trigger the heater! .. It will not heat the battery while driving, and it will not heat the battery when E-heat is on.. at all. Even if the temperature is dropping while charging it will not heat the battery at all if E-heat is on! The cut-off tempeature when AC charging or DC charging at 50kW seems to be 10C average temperature. On HPC it is 20C, but on FC/HPC it will always turn off at 60% state of charge.

That means.. first of all, there is a chance of damaging the battery pack since you could be driving for hours with a battery pack of sub-zero degrees and then plug it into a charger, and charge at 30kW with no heater on.. just the heat from the loss inside the battery at 30kW, which is nothing.. Also the car is running regen with freezing battery (which might be fine since it is not charging for a long time, but I would be concerned about driving down a mountain after parking the car in very cold weather).

So basically when driving at really cold temperatures, charge from 10% to 60% if possible. If charging above 60% it will just loose all heat before next charging and will both loose capacity and charging times. In -20 I had usable capacity of about 60kWh at 80% and a range of actually about 1/3 of its tested range.

 

[bosbruce]

We're coming into our first winter here with the MME and I'm curious about the effect of cold weather on charging, particularly fast charging in this case. My wife just attempted to use an EA charger while out and never even came close to the theoretical 150kW charging speed. It topped out at 36kW for the entire duration of the charge session. Is this expected? Or did we just get a bad charging station? And before anyone asks -- the heater was turned off while charging. Just the radio was running while attempting to charge.

I had this same experience 2 out of 4 charging stops on a 600 mile round trip over Thanksgiving. It wasn't the fault of the 150 KW / 350 KW EA Chargers which were charging other vehicles (including plugs I had tried right beforehand) at 95KW rate. At the very same charge stations one day I got ~33 KW charging and 2 days later ~90KW. The only thing that seems consistent is that my first stop on a coolish trip the car charges very slowly even if I'd been driving for ~3 hours and at ~ 20% , but 2-3 hours later another stop and it charges reasonably.

I departed Boston 11/25 6 AM @ 100% charge, tried 3 stations when I reached Stratford Square, CT 3 hours later (highway ~67 mph) @17% and all did 31-40KW rate (charged total of 25-80% in 55 minutes plugged in time) I called EA and they said the request was for 33KW rate (i.e. Mach E). I drove another 2.5 hours / 120 miles or so to Quaker Bridge Mall, NJ EA station @23% and was able to briefly charge at 95KW rate before having to depart to make it in time for Thanksgiving dinner (@50%). The trip began at 32 degrees F and ended at 40 degrees.

On the return trip it was again around 32 degrees but remained about that temperature throughout. I couldn't plug in overnight so started @40%, returned to the same Quaker Bridge Mall EA station I had gotten 95KW charge rate at 2 days earlier @28% only to find it was now giving me 33KW or so. I tried 4 stations and spoke with others charging there who were getting better charge rates on a Taycan and a Volvo XC40. I tried turning the car completely off in case that might speed it up. Took well over an hour to get from 28% to 78% and get going again. I again stopped at the Stratford Square, CT station @21% and this time got to 80% in only 37 minutes (close to 90KW rate). So clearly it can charge quickly in cold temperatures but just as clearly it often does not.

If this gets any worse as temperatures drop further, the Mustang Mach E is basically not usable for long trips in cold weather. Mine is RWD standard range Premium (so I think should charge a little slower rate than extended range but faster than non-premium standard range). If it was just me I might tolerate the long stops, but family (including 2 dogs we can't trust alone in the car), 2 hours of traffic delays, and over 2 hours of charging make the 300 mile trip too much for us.

Hoping we can get some more hard data on these charging issues. Hoping Ford does something here. I contacted Ford and all they could say is "Charge to 100% (I had to explain that was fine for beginning a long trip but moronic to do at a DCFC *during* a trip) and cold weather will reduce your range." My previous car was a Tesla Model 3 AWD (+) . Up until now the better ergonomics, heated steering wheel, power liftgate, and space of the Mach E compensated for things Ford still has to work on like Phone as a key (and the fact that my Model 3 AWD+ was a better performance vehicle than the Mach E GT). The Model 3 did have sledgehammer-hitting-the-undersides noises while fast charging below 20 degrees but still charged quickly, FWIW .After this trip I realize the Mach E may just not be usable for longish winter drives unless Ford does something here. This to me is a significant problem. I might be renting a Camry to drive to PHL for Christmas.

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