Ford Model e Dealership

[MellowJohnny]

Then there's this from GM's Investor Day, per Bloomberg:

General Motors said something surprising at its investor day in New York City on Thursday. Fixing Teslas is a growing business for the 114 year-old auto maker.

That’s right. GM (ticker: GM) dealers are fixing Teslas. Since 2021, GM dealers have fixed more than 11,000 electric vehicles from Tesla (TSLA), according to GM President Mark Reuss.

https://stocks.apple.com/AV8DUvcATRY-hPWauzYfKMA

Seems if GM can figure out how to fix Teslas, it's not a stretch to assume others can figure out how to fix a MME or Lightning.

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[PupSideDown]

I have a feeling that the rules will change again when it becomes clear how many rural/small dealerships cannot afford to buy/own/install a L3 charger. The rest of the investment in EV tools, lift, and mechanic certification are minor compared to the L3 charger.

My bet is that Ford will soften/eliminate that requirement if there is a L3 charger within x miles. That would be the 'reasonable' way to enable more Dealerships to obtain/retain EV sales/service

Many dealers, even in rural/small markets, are located near interstate, or other main highways. Their location may make them eligible to apply for inclusion, and funding available in the NEVI investments. Dealers can reach out to planners in their states, and attend stakeholder meetings to determine if the cost of installation of DCFC might be paid for using NEVI funds.

When I saw the earlier announcements about Ford's plans for e-dealer certification, I forwarded the link and info to the team managing the NEVI spending for KY, and asked if they could reach out to dealers who might be located on their proposed maps for DCFC installation. The response I received was very positive, and indicated they would contact the dealers.

 

[dtbaker61]

Many dealers, even in rural/small markets, are located near interstate, or other main highways. Their location may make them eligible to apply for inclusion, and funding available in the NEVI investments. Dealers can reach out to planners in their states, and attend stakeholder meetings to determine if the cost of installation of DCFC might be paid for using NEVI funds.

When I saw the earlier announcements about Ford's plans for e-dealer certification, I forwarded the link and info to the team managing the NEVI spending for KY, and asked if they could reach out to dealers who might be located on their proposed maps for DCFC installation. The response I received was very positive, and indicated they would contact the dealers.

The NEVI grants are designed for BIG multi-handle stations within 1 mile of interstates. Minimum requirement is 4x handles at 150kw each..... making the minimum investment 4x what the minimum Ford requirement is (1x handle).

Yes, many small Ford Dealerships are within a mile of a highway, but not eligible Interstates, and may not have 3-phase power available. The last Ford requirements I am aware of required the Dealership to own/operate the station, which seems a little unreasonable if it's easier to find a third party that already has, or is willing to add, a station within X miles of the Dealership.

Dealerships *should* have several L2 chargers available for demo, service, charging new vehicles on delivery, etc.... but I think the requirement for L3 charger ownership is a bit much if there is already one installed nearby.

 

[PupSideDown]

The NEVI grants are designed for BIG multi-handle stations within 1 mile of interstates. Minimum requirement is 4x handles at 150kw each..... making the minimum investment 4x what the minimum Ford requirement is (1x handle).

Yes, many small Ford Dealerships are within a mile of a highway, but not eligible Interstates, and may not have 3-phase power available. The last Ford requirements I am aware of required the Dealership to own/operate the station, which seems a little unreasonable if it's easier to find a third party that already has, or is willing to add, a station within X miles of the Dealership.

Dealerships *should* have several L2 chargers available for demo, service, charging new vehicles on delivery, etc.... but I think the requirement for L3 charger ownership is a bit much if there is already one installed nearby.

The requirements for number of chargers per site varies, depending on parameters determined by each state. States are required to make their plan, which includes maps, charging site goals (# of chargers/50 miles, # of chargers/site, timeframe for installation - phase 1, phase2, etc., coordination with public utilities, etc.).

I agree that not all dealerships are eligible. All they need to do is look at the maps, which can be found on the websites managed by their state, and figure out if they are located on any of the routes designated as priority EV charging routes. Contacting the NEVI managers for their state can clarify what options they may be eligible for. If a third party is willing to use the dealership lot to install and maintain the chargers, (with NEVI subsidy for installation) I would be surprised if Ford refused to consider this option.

Installing more DCFC options, nationwide, benefits all EV owners. The concept is just chargers (supported by reliable utilities) installed in parking lots. It's not groundbreaking technology. No one is expecting the dealerships to split atoms, or anything. Sheesh. Ford dealers can be part of the solution, and with generous federal subsidies it seems like a pretty easy choice.

 

[dtbaker61]

The requirements for number of chargers per site varies, depending on parameters determined by each state. States are required to make their plan, which includes maps, charging site goals (# of chargers/50 miles, # of chargers/site, timeframe for installation - phase 1, phase2, etc., coordination with public utilities, etc.).

I agree that not all dealerships are eligible. All they need to do is look at the maps, which can be found on the websites managed by their state, and figure out if they are located on any of the routes designated as priority EV charging routes. Contacting the NEVI managers for their state can clarify what options they may be eligible for. If a third party is willing to use the dealership lot to install and maintain the chargers, (with NEVI subsidy for installation) I would be surprised if Ford refused to consider this option.

Installing more DCFC options, nationwide, benefits all EV owners. The concept is just chargers (supported by reliable utilities) installed in parking lots. It's not groundbreaking technology. No one is expecting the dealerships to split atoms, or anything. Sheesh. Ford dealers can be part of the solution, and with generous federal subsidies it seems like a pretty easy choice.

L2 chargers are cheap, and easy

L3 are expensive.... require 3-phase power, and enough 'sales' to pay off whoever makes the (big) investment up front. Just ONE station, running at 150kw, will cost close to $750k at a minimum for hardware and dedicated transformer, plus operational costs with high load demand can make the minimum monthly energy bills un-profitable unless the local utility has an 'EV-specific' rate-class to reduce 'demand charge' which is usually assessed with big loads. L3 chargers are NOT a big money maker unless they get steady use.

 

[TRP]

I had an RV dealer refuse to work on a brand new RV because I did not buy from them. Never been turned away from a Ford dealer for that tho.

I can see dealers in my area not wanting to spend that money Ford suggested to become an E dealer. Folks around here are just too stuck in their ways to see far enough into the future to make a good decision, I'm afraid.

This and the way Ford is handling the 3rd party app account lockout fiasco, has me already looking towards my next vehicle a few years ahead of my intentions

 

[Billyk24]

L2 chargers are cheap, and easy

L3 are expensive.... require 3-phase power, and enough 'sales' to pay off whoever makes the (big) investment up front. Just ONE station, running at 150kw, will cost close to $750k at a minimum for hardware and dedicated transformer, plus operational costs with high load demand can make the minimum monthly energy bills un-profitable unless the local utility has an 'EV-specific' rate-class to reduce 'demand charge' which is usually assessed with big loads. L3 chargers are NOT a big money maker unless they get steady use.

Can you document this $750,000 fee per ev charger?

 

[DadzBoyz]

I’m buying my MME at a dealer in another state, as none of the locals had one available, OR they had a $10-15k ADM. I was fortunate enough to be able to take over an order at MSRP.
I’m interested to see how getting service goes.

As far as the question around no local dealers being certified, I have a feeling that Ford is setting up a solution.
I’m seeing more and more about Ford arranging to pick up your car for you, service it, and bring it back to you.
A few months ago, I suggested that Ford should setup factory owned, regional EV service centers.
A pick-up and drop-off model would work well with that model.
Maybe Ford is looking at setting up factory owned EV service centers. If not, they should.

 

[dtbaker61]

Can you document this $750,000 fee per ev charger?

yes

I have been working with a team scoping out possible L3 sites all over NM, and by the time you line up a DCFC charge station, base unit, pad, trenching, dedicated transformer, and 3-phase power..... it is at least $750k per 150kw 'handle'..... and then the operational costs of high-demand electrical load is NOT like a house as there are 'demand charges' built around the max load, not just kWhr

 

[Billyk24]

yes

I have been working with a team scoping out possible L3 sites all over NM, and by the time you line up a DCFC charge station, base unit, pad, trenching, dedicated transformer, and 3-phase power..... it is at least $750k per 150kw 'handle'..... and then the operational costs of high-demand electrical load is NOT like a house as there are 'demand charges' built around the max load, not just kWhr

How much profit are you making? Tesla charges $60, 000 for the hardware and upgrading to 3 phase and transformer cost up to $200,000. This Tesla figures and replies. They do sell to fleet operators.

 

[dtbaker61]

How much profit are you making? Tesla charges $60, 000 for the hardware and upgrading to 3 phase and transformer cost up to $200,000. This Tesla figures and replies. They do sell to fleet operators.

All I can say is the numbers are quite different for an owner operator of a non Tesla charge station.

Financial modeling is actually quite different in a lot of areas because of unknown utility rate plans that jack up demand charges for the high kilowatt loads.

Install hardware is only a part of initial cost..... install labor, site easement, cost to bring in 3 phase,

AND THEN operational o&m, subscription for billing/network, utility demand charges and monthly fees on top of energy charges.....

Makes net profit pretty thin until you have a steady 10 charges per day revenue

 

[phil]

yes

I have been working with a team scoping out possible L3 sites all over NM, and by the time you line up a DCFC charge station, base unit, pad, trenching, dedicated transformer, and 3-phase power..... it is at least $750k per 150kw 'handle'..... and then the operational costs of high-demand electrical load is NOT like a house as there are 'demand charges' built around the max load, not just kWhr

Per handle? Are you saying there are no economies of scale?

That is, $750k for one handle, and $3MM for four 150kW handles at the same site?

I am no expert, just would find this a little surprising.

 

[AKgrampy]

All I can say is the numbers are quite different for an owner operator of a non Tesla charge station.

Financial modeling is actually quite different in a lot of areas because of unknown utility rate plans that jack up demand charges for the high kilowatt loads.

Install hardware is only a part of initial cost..... install labor, site easement, cost to bring in 3 phase,

AND THEN operational o&m, subscription for billing/network, utility demand charges and monthly fees on top of energy charges.....

Makes net profit pretty thin until you have a steady 10 charges per day revenue

Many people complain about demand charges only because, from my perspective, they do not understand rates. Basically residential rates include demand charges in their per kWh rate because as a rate class there is a decent load factor. The problem arises when a commercial load has a poor load factor. As you mention a DCFC takes quite a few charges a day to be profitable. If only one charge a day then costs need to be recovered from that one charge. With 10 charges then costs are spread over a greater amount of kWh. The more charges the higher the load factor. Commercial rates, in general, are lower than residential if the commercial facility has a load factor greater than that of the residential class.

 

[dtbaker61]

Per handle? Are you saying there are no economies of scale?

That is, $750k for one handle, and $3MM for four 150kW handles at the same site?

I am no expert, just would find this a little surprising.

There is some economy of scale.... but it gets wiped out if power isn't shared and you have to bump up size of dedicated transformer and higher demand charges.

Irrelevant for Ford dealers that only need one.

 

[kennethjk]

i understand the cost analysis a dealer has to deal with And it might not make them money.

but as someone who take road trips , for example, from Boca Raton to Tampa, there is a Ford station in Bartow right off the road I drive thru.
it would be nice to have that as a fast charging option.

I have seen a number of Ford dealerships right off highways. Having them as options would be nice when I am away from home, if there are few other options.

On the hand, if the ford stations come on line at the same time as all the NEVI stations in a few years , it might make the Ford chargers irrelevant which means it would be a waste of money.

so , bottom line, I think Ford needs to rethink their strategy

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