harrysiii

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That seems like a pretty fair trade off. After all the GTPE owners are happy with paying 5 grand more than the GT, only getting 34 ftlbs more and a hair faster 0-60.

They're paying more for upgrading to magneride and getting some summer tires (and now as we know bigger brakes god damnit) over the GT than the GT owners paid over the Premium owners to get all those extras of the GT.

Seems like a steal actually.
I do agree and that's why I've been on the "I'm very happy with my GTPE purchase even through all this." :)
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Scooby24

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Wow you are missing the simplest of points.

Saying they use a 5 second boost for peak hp isn’t disclosure, it’s maybe 1/3 of what needs to be disclosed.

Power without boost- needs to be disclosed.

How long the boost ACTUALLY lasts- needs to be disclosed (it isn’t always 5 seconds).

This is NOT anything like sftf ltft timing tables etc (yes, I spent my share tuning cars as well).

This is about being honest about how much power the car makes….. with and without boost.

All the other car manufacturers disclose power with and without boost. And they do it on the REGULAR PUBLIC WEBSITE. Not hidden in some media event or media release.

FWIW, I did already see that European disclosure about the 5 seconds, someone posted it yesterday. It’s not enough disclosure.
You're conflating your own wants and desires to be what's actually needed.

They only NEED to disclose the absolute specifics if there is a legal requirement to do so. If they satisfied the legal requirement which I certainly believe they did here, the only way they would NEED to disclose is if everyone felt as you did and as a result, decided not to buy the vehicle.

I suspect most are going to be just fine with their GT's power (as I'm sure you will be as well in the end) and the metrics that Ford will ultimately use to determine a need for those specifics will suggest it's not necessary.

Bringing this back up
Model Y LR vs Performance is a 7 grand premium.

LR = 0-60 4.1 seconds 1/4 = [email protected]
Performance = 0-60 3.6 seconds 1/4 = 12.1@113

Note the trap speeds.
Note the MYP ET drops but Trap is slower (or about the same). This is because it's the same concept. Power boost off the line. Are you seeing any disclosures on the Model Y performance that it's making its power increase as a boost early that drops off the same as we see here? (albeit maybe more linearly)
 
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phidauex

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Imagine if EVs had been common for 50 years and then someone released an ICE vehicle for the first time…

“Wait, you don’t get rated power unless you are at sea level?” What insanely deceptive advertising! Everyone in Colorado needs to get a refund asap - they’ve never seen full power one time!

Look, I get the frustration of GTPE owners who were hoping for more, and I share the desire for Ford to be more up front about the specs, but part of this is just relearning how the vehicle works. There are different constraints and different tuning strategies, and every company is making compromises in different areas to manage those constraints.

It will take some time for everyone to agree on what those compromises should be and to anticipate them fairly.
 

narmstrong79

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Decent video, but this dude is always sweating ?
 

buzznwood

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At the end of the day, the GT is just over 4k more than the extended range AWD.
Apples to Apples the GT is a $7595 (2022 prices) premium over the premium AWD extended range, as the premium comes with the glass roof & 360 camera as standard so these need to be added, or subtracted from your computation.

However nobody needs to justify what they have purchased to anybody but them selves, so if your happy with it that is all that matters :). I am happy with the magneride of the GTPE, yes as it was the only reason I went for it and I do like the front end better and the wheels on the GTPE but as value proposition for what you get it really is not, x-plan and tax credits are the only thing keeping it competitive for now.

The worst car I have ever had the miss fortune of driving was a 2005 mustang GT so compared to that then this 'mustang' mach-e GT is a revelation so silver lining and all that :), but for those that crave what a performance BEV can offer then you really need to look elsewhere as Ford has a lot of catching up to do.
 


Mach1E

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You're conflating your own wants and desires to be what's actually needed.

They only NEED to disclose the absolute specifics if there is a legal requirement to do so. If they satisfied the legal requirement which I certainly believe they did here, the only way they would NEED to disclose is if everyone felt as you did and as a result, decided not to buy the vehicle.

I suspect most are going to be just fine with their GT's power (as I'm sure you will be as well in the end) and the metrics that Ford will ultimately use to determine a need for those specifics will suggest it's not necessary.

Bringing this back up


Note the MYP ET drops but Trap is slower (or about the same). This is because it's the same concept. Power boost off the line. Are you seeing any disclosures on the Model Y performance that it's making its power increase as a boost early that drops off the same as we see here? (albeit maybe more linearly)
I make no claims to be a legal expert on European horsepower disclosures.

Someone else here (from Europe) did state that disclosing hp with and without boost is a legal requirement there. They referenced the Focus ST as an example I believe.

There doesn’t seem to be the same legal requirement in the Us (which is why the only disclaimer on the media site is from Europe).

But legality aside, this is about deception and right and wrong. Can they legally make claims like 480 hp and sucker us into putting down deposits and waiting years to buy their product without having to tell us it’s a bit of smoke and mirrors? (Possibly, hopefully the courts won’t get involved).

What SHOULD they do? At the very least, what the other manufacturers do.

Like Porsche. The details on power with and without boost are right on the Taycan home page:
https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan/


Ford Mustang Mach-E Great Mach-E GT PE Drag Strip Testing - 12 Runs! FEE0DE0F-9404-49D4-9C3E-01707AA23441
 

buzznwood

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Imagine if EVs had been common for 50 years and then someone released an ICE vehicle for the first time…

“Wait, you don’t get rated power unless you are at sea level?” What insanely deceptive advertising! Everyone in Colorado needs to get a refund asap - they’ve never seen full power one time!

Look, I get the frustration of GTPE owners who were hoping for more, and I share the desire for Ford to be more up front about the specs, but part of this is just relearning how the vehicle works. There are different constraints and different tuning strategies, and every company is making compromises in different areas to manage those constraints.

It will take some time for everyone to agree on what those compromises should be and to anticipate them fairly.
This would all be valid if this was the first ever performance orientated BEV to ever to be sold, but it simply isn't and people can compare it against others and see these limitations are not present to the same degree.

At the end of the day this is still Fords 300 mile compliance car just wearing a sporty frock and we don't know hoe many of those original compliance bones exisit and they may just not be up to the task, otherwise a properly engineered performance derivative would not have all these limitations.

Will Ford make a better one the future sure they probably will but chances are those owners burned by this experience won't be returning to the Ford brand to get one.
 

Mach1E

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You're conflating your own wants and desires to be what's actually needed.

They only NEED to disclose the absolute specifics if there is a legal requirement to do so. If they satisfied the legal requirement which I certainly believe they did here, the only way they would NEED to disclose is if everyone felt as you did and as a result, decided not to buy the vehicle.

I suspect most are going to be just fine with their GT's power (as I'm sure you will be as well in the end) and the metrics that Ford will ultimately use to determine a need for those specifics will suggest it's not necessary.

Bringing this back up


Note the MYP ET drops but Trap is slower (or about the same). This is because it's the same concept. Power boost off the line. Are you seeing any disclosures on the Model Y performance that it's making its power increase as a boost early that drops off the same as we see here? (albeit maybe more linearly)
Side note…… I just realized that you’re yelling at us for bitching about Ford not being forthcoming with how they marketed and disclosed horsepower.

And you’re the guy bitching about Ford not being forthcoming with how they marketed and disclosed the brakes on the GT and GTPE.

FWIW, I’m on your side about the brake thing, even though I really don’t care which brakes I get. I just find it interesting that you care so much about the stopping power but not so much about the horsepower.
 

Pushrods&Capacitors

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Surely you understand private media events are how companies get a consistent message out for their products. They share media material which is used as talking points.

It doesn't have to be explicitly stated in marketing material to be disclosed.

As someone who's tuned multiple vehicles, I can tell you that every other manufacturer most certainly does not disclose all the variables factored into how they make peak power.

From long term, short term fuel trims, to boost tables, to dynamic advanced multipliers, to DA scaling, to knock feedback, to throttle mapping, to torque request tables, to torque limiting by gear, etc.

People aren't smart enough to understand it. So they get a dumbed down version. AKA, here's your power meter.

Maybe you want all the information...maybe you're capable of understanding it all. Do they have to give it to you?

No.

Will bitching about it get Ford to give it to you? Probably not.

Can you keep bitching? Sure... go for it. Get it all out of your system. (evidently it's not yet?... must be a lot in there. Maybe consider a laxative?)

edit:
Here ya go, they disclosed it.

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...rformance--online-ordering-for-ford-must.html



Best not to speak in absolutes with confidence. People tend to end up looking silly when proven wrong.
Thing is, who GAF about looking silly? If I’m wrong and a mofo on here calls me on it, oh well, now I’ve learned something new. What’s the preoccupation with being wrong?

Meanwhile your link is for European market where the power is listed in PS and their regs required Ford to state the 5 second boost info. ?

US didn’t get that info. that I ever saw.

This stuff is simple, Ford is sandbagging the power level, that’s it. My bet is that it gets corrected, otherwise the GT is gonna get blacklisted by track going types not interested in a neutered Extend track mode or inability to lay down 1 single solitary full 1/4 mile. Hell, it already is.

Just wait until Edmunds runs it against their purchased Model Y Perf. In the 1/4 mile. Hoo Boy. And C&D and MT print 1/4 mile mph of 101-104. Shits gonna get real.
 

Pushrods&Capacitors

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Did someone say Boost?
Ford Mustang Mach-E Great Mach-E GT PE Drag Strip Testing - 12 Runs! 43671038-17E0-43B8-82F8-2698611F57B3

23psi. Dyno tuned, flex E55, DP, GS TMIC, GS CAI, EBC. 115+ traps ?
 

Pushrods&Capacitors

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You're conflating your own wants and desires to be what's actually needed.

They only NEED to disclose the absolute specifics if there is a legal requirement to do so. If they satisfied the legal requirement which I certainly believe they did here, the only way they would NEED to disclose is if everyone felt as you did and as a result, decided not to buy the vehicle.

I suspect most are going to be just fine with their GT's power (as I'm sure you will be as well in the end) and the metrics that Ford will ultimately use to determine a need for those specifics will suggest it's not necessary.

Bringing this back up


Note the MYP ET drops but Trap is slower (or about the same). This is because it's the same concept. Power boost off the line. Are you seeing any disclosures on the Model Y performance that it's making its power increase as a boost early that drops off the same as we see here? (albeit maybe more linearly)
Out in the wild and the Dragy leaderboards those Model Y numbers are anomalies. Not sure of the context, SOC, ambient temps of those two results. Looks like the 12.1 run from CD and the MT 12.4 run. In reality the P pulls on the LR with higher trap speeds. Same with the 3P vs. dual motor LR. Although they are closer than one may think when the launch is removed.
 

buzznwood

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I make no claims to be a legal expert on European horsepower disclosures.

Someone else here (from Europe) did state that disclosing hp with and without boost is a legal requirement there. They referenced the Focus ST as an example I believe.

There doesn’t seem to be the same legal requirement in the Us (which is why the only disclaimer on the media site is from Europe).

But legality aside, this is about deception and right and wrong. Can they legally make claims like 480 hp and sucker us into putting down deposits and waiting years to buy their product without having to tell us it’s a bit of smoke and mirrors? (Possibly, hopefully the courts won’t get involved).

What SHOULD they do? At the very least, what the other manufacturers do.

Like Porsche. The details on power with and without boost are right on the Taycan home page:
https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan/
Europe did not allow peak power to be advertised if it came from a timed overboost, hence the power of the Fiesta ST was lower in Europe (without) vs the USA (with), with turbo engines it is pretty common to have a peak and sustained boost, so I was never really sure what the point of having a timed over boost as you just make it part of the normal boost curve so it is always present.

Rules do change all the time, however for the mach-e they are currently using 'up to 487ps' the other trims just have the exact ps value no up to, so they are probably covered, however they have yet to disclose the un boosted power which I doubt is any different to the awd premium and as every other manufacture with a timed overboost EV has made it very clear in advertising in Europe and over here from a PR perspective it is not a good look.

Even if legally covered if a Europen GT makes it way to a carwow comparison drag race with other performance EVs the results are going to be pretty brutal lol.
 

Scooby24

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Side note…… I just realized that you’re yelling at us for bitching about Ford not being forthcoming with how they marketed and disclosed horsepower.

And you’re the guy bitching about Ford not being forthcoming with how they marketed and disclosed the brakes on the GT and GTPE.

FWIW, I’m on your side about the brake thing, even though I really don’t care which brakes I get. I just find it interesting that you care so much about the stopping power but not so much about the horsepower.
It's an entirely different matter when we are speaking about specifications that simply were never there versus there for a period of time like peak power. The Brakes were not something that was a forthcoming issue. They flat out stated the brakes were the same between the models in their specifications.

It's an important distinction. One has the power as stated* The other flat out isn't what is stated.
 
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Scooby24

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Thing is, who GAF about looking silly? If I’m wrong and a mofo on here calls me on it, oh well, now I’ve learned something new. What’s the preoccupation with being wrong?

Meanwhile your link is for European market where the power is listed in PS and their regs required Ford to state the 5 second boost info. ?

US didn’t get that info. that I ever saw.

This stuff is simple, Ford is sandbagging the power level, that’s it. My bet is that it gets corrected, otherwise the GT is gonna get blacklisted by track going types not interested in a neutered Extend track mode or inability to lay down 1 single solitary full 1/4 mile. Hell, it already is.

Just wait until Edmunds runs it against their purchased Model Y Perf. In the 1/4 mile. Hoo Boy. And C&D and MT print 1/4 mile mph of 101-104. Shits gonna get real.
You're totally okay being that guy that regurgitates falsehoods that are demonstrably wrong?

It's not just you getting corrected...things you say as though they were factual are seen by others and perpetuated and that much harder to correct.

This is your position while being mad at Ford for not being transparent with their information? Bizarre. Truly.
 

Mach1E

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It's an entirely different matter when we are speaking about specifications that simply were never there versus there for a period of time like peak power. The Brakes were not something that was a forthcoming issue. They flat out stated the brakes were the same between the models in their specifications.

It's an important distinction. One has the power as stated* The other flat out isn't what is stated.
Semantics.

But I see it as the same issue:

Ford either messing up the details or not giving us the details and us being angry that we aren’t getting the performance we desire.

Just found it incredibly ironic that you’re taking a very strong stance criticizing Ford on one issue and a very strong stance defending Ford on the other issue.

They advertised brakes a certain way and you expected and wanted them (even though what they advertised is impossible, 19” brakes. And the other details were advertised by Brembo, not Ford).

And thus you had certain expectations, and made buying decisions based on it.

Well, for me, they advertised 480hp and beating the Model Y. That gave me expectations and I made buying decisions based on it.

They didn’t advertise 480hp temporarily as a boost (at least not in the US). And in Europe that disclaimer was buried so deep that thousands of us looking daily at the internet for updates on details on the car (and the media for that matter) couldn’t figure out that detail until 3 months after they posted it.

It was hidden so well that all the news stories talking about the 5 second limitations site THIS WEBSITE as the source!!

And even with it somewhat known at this point, we still don’t know how much power it makes without the boost and how long the boost lasts from a roll.

Ford advertised “Brembo brakes” for the GT. You were expecting the 480hp (best) version of that and used outside sources of information to logically make that assumption. And are mad it didn’t live up to YOUR expectations.

Yup, you sound an awful lot like me.
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