Heat Pump Performance - Anything to Report?

[GreaseMonkey]

These are the conditions that would benefit the most from the heat pump: 11 miles in 1.5 hours of driving in 28 deg weather. My efficiency is 1.7 miles per kWh. 39% of energy went to climate control.

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[E90alex]

11 miles in 1.5 hours???

 

[GreaseMonkey]

11 miles in 1.5 hours???

Chicago is #3 in traffic worldwide. But I did stop in line to pick the kids up from school (prob 10 min). I drove 60 mph near the lake for about 3 miles. So all in, the 8 mph average is realistic. Our speed limit is between 20 and 30 mph without traffic.

 

[ChrisO]

There are several examinations in Germany for the mostly mild weather here that if the HP comes with the car as Standard then fine. If you have to buy it as an upgrade then it only is worth it if you expect to use the car in really cold conditions otherwise it will most likely not return the cost of the option. So not to worry for the mme as it is on newer models standard. I own now the 2nd mme w/o HP and its für me ok. Right now in december we have outside 3 degrees Celsius or 37 fahrenheit

It isn't an option, 2025s and above have the heat pump (and a smaller frunk). No choice in the matter.

You didn't happen to ask copilot where it got those numbers, did you?

No, I didn't, but I just asked it again and I think people will find it interesting of what sources it used.

BTW on the subject of EPA numbers. I did notice that the extend range battery is smaller on the 2025s, but the EPA range is stated as the same.

And for the record, I don't put any more faith in these numbers it came up with than other people throwing out guesses. And yes, they are guesses unless you are doing an accurate apples to apples comparison. Lots of things can change from one year to another, or even from on trip to another.

 

[RickMachE]

You didn't happen to ask copilot where it got those numbers, did you?

It isn't an option, 2025s and above have the heat pump (and a smaller frunk). No choice in the matter.



No, I didn't, but I just asked it again and I think people will find it interesting of what sources it used.

BTW on the subject of EPA numbers. I did notice that the extend range battery is smaller on the 2025s, but the EPA range is stated as the same.

And for the record, I don't put any more faith in these numbers it came up with than other people throwing out guesses. And yes, they are guesses unless you are doing an accurate apples to apples comparison. Lots of things can change from one year to another, or even from on trip to another.

In other words, made up shit. And this forum is a source for the 2024 and priors. Useless AI crap. Useless posts.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

It isn't an option, 2025s and above have the heat pump (and a smaller frunk). No choice in the matter.



No, I didn't, but I just asked it again and I think people will find it interesting of what sources it used.

BTW on the subject of EPA numbers. I did notice that the extend range battery is smaller on the 2025s, but the EPA range is stated as the same.

And for the record, I don't put any more faith in these numbers it came up with than other people throwing out guesses. And yes, they are guesses unless you are doing an accurate apples to apples comparison. Lots of things can change from one year to another, or even from on trip to another.

Not the first time it happens. Some time ago, a guy posted an article here about news that came from, well, here of course. Excel would at least have flagged it as a circular reference.

 

[ChrisO]

Not the first time it happens. Some time ago, a guy posted an article here about news that came from, well, here of course. Excel would at least have flagged it as a circular reference.

Yep, that somebody was me.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

Yep, that somebody was me.

Chris: king of fake news

 

[Mache_Nor]

People who believe heat pump is not improving the range or more efficient than old heater elements are simply wrong. Copilot or not, there is enough literature and cold weather studies to confirm this.
However, what we need to try figuring out is just how much / little the improvement is. Ideally we would have same car / wheel setup, temperature and driving route for some hours, then do that 2-3 times to try to control for the factors we can control. Ultimately it would be an improvement, but by how much is hard to say.

 

[davegram]

I've been collecting data tracking efficiency in relation to daily temperatures since early September. I'll share it once we get into the depths of winter... I haven't had any single-digit temperature days here in NY yet.

 

[RickMachE]

People who believe heat pump is not improving the range or more efficient than old heater elements are simply wrong. Copilot or not, there is enough literature and cold weather studies to confirm this.
However, what we need to try figuring out is just how much / little the improvement is. Ideally we would have same car / wheel setup, temperature and driving route for some hours, then do that 2-3 times to try to control for the factors we can control. Ultimately it would be an improvement, but by how much is hard to say.

Yes, and no.

Just because a technology is more efficient doesn't mean that the implementation of that technology in a real life scenario is more efficient.

And, the conditions matter. If say a heat pump is more efficient at temps in the range of 30 to 40F, and the temp drops from 45F to 28F and never gets into the range of efficiency, then it's not more efficient.

Some efficiency gains may be so small as to be unmeasurable without the proper instrumentation. People have been removing the front air dam (even before it was retractable) for years on the F-150 / Lightning saying "I noticed no difference". That "no difference" is hard to measure, and over the millions of F-150s with it the efficiency gain for Ford is huge.

Lastly, the tradeoffs for efficiency may not be worth it to some, if given the choice. People have noted slower heat and more noise with a heat pump.

I look forward to some side-by-side tests to see if it's really "noticeable". And less AI shit.

As an example, I upgraded my home furnaces from an 80% efficient 2005 model to a 97% efficient 2023 model. This gain in efficiency "hasn't been noticed in my bills". The tradeoff to get more efficient was a) running PVC out the side of the house instead of using the chimney flue, resulting in both a noticeable smell if you're outside near the exhaust when the furnace is running, plus noise from the exhaust, noticeable from inside the house when you sit in a chair near that wall, b) noise from the more efficient motor that is clearly audible over the blowing air noise and "that's the way all these motors are". Not to mention the $20K pricetag. I did get 10 years of labor and parts warranty, and lack of worrying about the systems failing until I am probably too old to care.

 

[CarGuy11]

^^^ Agreed I have been asking how the heat pump sounds in the cold. In hot temps the ac pump is really noisy so wondering if the heat pump is the same in the frigid cold.

 

[davegram]

I'll post the data I've got thus far in a separate thread.

 

[Mache_Nor]

For / to discussion and as a documentation that heat pumps generally are favorable (outperforms heating elements) in EVs (abstract summarizes the articles / papers

https://evs38-program.org/images/Proceedings/H Electric Vehicle management/370_A Comparison of Heat Pump and Resistive Heating Impacts on Battery Electric Vehicle Energy Consumption and Range in Cold Temperatures.pdf

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960148125015903

 

[ATL]

My concern/question is performance, not range, related...as I take few road trips in winter and can charge nightly. Night before last, it was an indicated -22C (~-8F) here and the heat, on auto1 set at 21C, was blowing warm enough to keep the cabin comfy. The battery must also have been warm enough, as there were no performance limitations.

I am well familiar with heat pump operation. For residential heating in our climate, special "cold climate" design is required. So--in conditions described above, and colder, will the Mach-E pump design be adequate to keep the battery warm enough, plus the cabin warm enough, to guaranty the safety of occupants?

At these temps, range probably won't be much different since it's well known that the colder it gets, the less efficiency advantage the pump has, with little or no apparent difference below -25C or so-even with cold climate design.

I don't think I've seen this addressed yet, but somebody in the North probably knows, now that heat pump cars have been sold for one full winter season.

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