MME Charging Curve Data Collection

[stroszek]

Not that I think we’ll see major improvements immediately but it doesn’t matter how busy Ford is making them, the software team can do its own thing.

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[Shayne]

I wasn't trying to be negative, but when I look back at it, it looks that way.

I am happy with the pre-production cars. I don't want to have high hopes for a bunch of changes when Ford is trying hard to push out all these cars to meet demand.
I had a computer chip fail in a first-year Prius, and they made the car a Lemon because they couldn't get a chip to fix it. And the car still drove just fine!!!

*I originally thought 6-months on the above time-line. Maybe I should keep it that way. I see how there are some people (not those reading this) that have unrealistic expectations and will be complaining loudly in a couple of months of driving.
** I'm even happy with the 11kW at "80%".

I was thinking the early v8's (before my time) were likely over designed and under utilized at the beginning also. As long at the hardware is sound with no major defects. I am not good with getting 70 KWh usable for the 100 KWh I anted up for but that is a dead horse and well known here. More complains always gets more results but one guy maybe not. We all know what we are getting and should expect (limitations and all) and should not expect miracles beyond what we have seen. Only two things and both can be tweaked so there is hope if no hardware problem. All good; be happy.

 

[Marcel]

From a Norwegian test...

 

[Garbone]

Well having worked on industrial DC power systems for a few decades I can say the bottleneck may not be the cells but the cabling and cooling.
Having upgraded lead acid plant to lithium type cells I can say first hand they can suck up the juice faster than most decent sized cables and chargers can produce it. Great fun, as you can replace 400ah of lead acid with the equivalent Lithium and get all types of fun. Lithiums would over current rectifiers and cause them to heat and trip, then you add more rectifiers only to discover your slagging you cables. Good times...

I don't know the true charge curve on Ford's cells but my guess is they are doing their best to keep things from getting smokey.

 

[dbsb3233]

From a Norwegian test...

Well, the 22-40 minute stretch looks good. Peaking at ~110 kW and gradually tapering to ~80 kW. That's all good. Maybe even slightly ahead of expectation for that part of the curve.

But the 0-22 minute stretch is very poor. Seems to suggest it probably started cold and took a looong time to warm up?

Hopefully they fix that in the production units.

 

[Shayne]

From a Norwegian test...

Reference please. It is that drop at 41 minutes that is the only problem for me and it looks like it could be software correctable if the hardware can handle it? Starts at 20% soc and take around 40 minutes to 80% so 40min/60% * 80% * 1.25 or about an hour to 100% (as long as we can get to 88 KWh useable once in a while). The whole curve may be able to be software tweaked over time? Hoping for a quick software fix for sure. Ford had to have designed/tested DCFC at many stages during design, preproduction and production so it would be really weird at this stage to have a major problem. "Poor Norwegian's" was the quote? We hear you here in Canada.

Timestamp 7:30

 

[Marcel]

Well, the 22-40 minute stretch looks good. Peaking at ~110 kW and gradually tapering to ~80 kW. That's all good. Maybe even slightly ahead of expectation for that part of the curve.

But the 0-22 minute stretch is very poor. Seems to suggest it probably started cold and took a looong time to warm up?

Hopefully they fix that in the production units.

They did start cold...that mostly explains the curve, the tapering at 80% is intentional and in the manual, you are not supposed to be FAST charging beyond 80%!

 

[dbsb3233]

They did start cold...that mostly explains the curve, the tapering at 80% is intentional and in the manual, you are not supposed to be FAST charging beyond 80%!

I just read the article it came from in the other thread. Good to confirm it started cold. But 22 minutes to warm up is a lot longer than I would have hoped with high power running through it.

But from a practical sense, I'm not worried about DCFC charging a car that's been sitting in the cold overnight. I'm concerned about charging between legs of a road trip, where I just pulled off the highway from 2 hours driving the last leg. It's unclear what that will be like. Hopefully not AS slow to warm up since the battery and circuitry was in use.

 

[Shayne]

They did start cold...that mostly explains the curve, the tapering at 80% is intentional and in the manual, you are not supposed to be FAST charging beyond 80%!

Do you think a recommendation suggesting that you do not DCFC over 80% too often will become Ford's position and they will hard limit a 100 KWh pack to only provide 70 KWh usable? Poor standard range. I think you are joking correct?

It has already deviated from historical understand and 94 KWh usable (my original assumption) went to 88 KWh usable. That has been advertised and is in peoples sales agreements. Guess we need to understand Fords definition of usable. Not suppose to (too often) and prevented from doing it are two different things with the latter again really not common historical understanding. You would think if that is where Ford is going to hang their hat than legally they should spit it out instead of putting out feelers. Bet that would not go over well in the real world (may be OK here). You should not red line a mustang so we installed a governor that limits rpm to only 70% ?.

 

[Marcel]

Do you think a recommendation suggesting that you do not DCFC over 80% too often will become Ford's position and they will hard limit a 100 KWh pack to only provide 70 KWh usable? Poor standard range. I think you are joking correct?

It has already deviated from historical understand and 94 KWh usable (my original assumption) went to 88 KWh usable. That has been advertised and is in peoples sales agreements. Guess we need to understand Fords definition of usable. Not suppose to (too often) and prevented from doing it are two different things with the latter again really not common historical understanding. You would think if that is where Ford is going to hang their hat than legally they should spit it out instead of putting out feelers. Bet that would not go over well in the real world (may be OK here). You should not red line a mustang so we installed a governor that limits rpm to only 70% ?.

You can charge to 100% just fine, only the last 20% will be at 11kW max. On a roadtrip it's best practice to charge 10-80 then to the next charger. At home you can charge to 100% if you start your trip shortly after it's full...

I have been driving electric for almost 6 years and this is the most effective way. Including 1200km trips.

@dbsb3233 at high speed road trips, the battery temp should be less of a problem,

 

[ajmartineau]

Hmm, 20 percent to 80% in less than what Ford has promised for 10-80%. Obviously, there is more speed there with a better battery temp. At first glance, I can see that this is a classic cold-gating case. This is what you should expect /hope for in winter.

 

[BlueMach]

They did start cold...that mostly explains the curve, the tapering at 80% is intentional and in the manual, you are not supposed to be FAST charging beyond 80%!

There are plenty of places where the full 100% is needed to make the next fast charger, even for a ER RWD. The artificial limit to DCFC at 80% and immediate downgrade to AC speeds is really troublesome to me. It might be in the manual, but it wasn't mentioned a year prior when I reserved, and no other BEV does it that extremely, so I feel like we were justified in assuming Mach-E wouldn't either.

Plus, in areas where it's not allowed to bill by the kWh, billing by the minute becomes outrageously expensive at that slow speed.

 

[dbsb3233]

Do you think a recommendation suggesting that you do not DCFC over 80% too often will become Ford's position and they will hard limit a 100 KWh pack to only provide 70 KWh usable? Poor standard range. I think you are joking correct?

It has already deviated from historical understand and 94 KWh usable (my original assumption) went to 88 KWh usable. That has been advertised and is in peoples sales agreements. Guess we need to understand Fords definition of usable. Not suppose to (too often) and prevented from doing it are two different things with the latter again really not common historical understanding. You would think if that is where Ford is going to hang their hat than legally they should spit it out instead of putting out feelers. Bet that would not go over well in the real world (may be OK here). You should not red line a mustang so we installed a governor that limits rpm to only 70% ?.

Again... it's another pre-production unit.

The very low 80%+ power rate may very well be a prime candidate for improving in the production units, or later OTA.

Hoping we start hearing some reports from customers that actually have production units soon.

 

[dbsb3233]

Hmm, 20 percent to 80% in less than what Ford has promised for 10-80%. Obviously, there is more speed there with a better battery temp. At first glance, I can see that this is a classic cold-gating case. This is what you should expect /hope for in winter.

Yep. Like so many things EV, DCFC charging times appear to be heavily affected by cold.

All the numbers they advertise need a big bold (*) next to them saying "in perfect weather". 10-80% in 45 minutes may be accurate at 72F. But at 50F, or 30F, or 10F, well, bring a book.

 

[ajmartineau]

Here is an example of a cold-gating E-Tron and ID.3

Time Stamp 9:40-12:30
(e-Tron quickly warms and charges very fast) 150kW deep into the pack and over 50kW at 99%.
Timestamp 32:08-34:03
e-Tron warms up slower but is pulling 67kW at 94% (that's too fast!)


I would like to have the ability to choose how aggressively the BMS regulates the battery. Do I want to spend the kW's to heat or cool the battery actively to charge super fast or passively to accept cold-gate/rapid-gate of the battery? They could add a slider on the charging screen. For economical charging or speedy charging. Also for on-demand battery pre-heating. And add every possible charger on PlugShare as a destination with an option to pre-heat.

Where did the charging curve come from?

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