Power Cap in The Real World

[Frankie]

Here's my offer from Driveway:

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[Kevin P]

Whats your sales tax rate?

6%. The $3500 profit includes the sales tax factored in. They offered me $63k, about what I paid for it, when it had 1000 miles. Driveway offered $62.2k a couple of weeks ago, with 3000 miles. They sent me the same "appointment" email that you show above but then a few hours later they texted and emailed me an actual offer, without me ever contacting them.

Frankly, Frankie, if I hated the car as much as you seem to hate yours, I would have sold it at a $3500 loss. I mean, its not going to get any better from a $ standpoint.. What are you waiting on?

 

[Cabel]

I charge to 90% overnight for my daily commute, and I usually have no gray bars when I leave for work. After one hard pull (passing someone, for example) while flooring it, I'll usually end up with two gray bars for a short period. The most I've seen to date was 4 bars, and that was at a sub-50% state of charge.

About the same here. I only charge to 75%, set the precondition timer for when I think I'll need the car and leave it plugged in. I've never seen more than 1-2 bars in "real world" daily driving, for example on my commute to work I rarely get about 65-70 due to traffic anyway. It's always had the low-speed "scoot"; that and the decent handling are what I love about the MME. I couldn't care less about top-end speed anyway, as I can't use it legally and I don't track it. I bought the GT PE model for the more-than-adequate acceleration (even when restricted), looks, seats and MagneRide.

 

[Frankie]

6%. The $3500 profit includes the sales tax factored in. They offered me $63k, about what I paid for it, when it had 1000 miles. Driveway offered $62.2k a couple of weeks ago, with 3000 miles. They sent me the same "appointment" email that you show above but then a few hours later they texted and emailed me an actual offer, without me ever contacting them.

Frankly, Frankie, if I hated the car as much as you seem to hate yours, I would have sold it at a $3500 loss. I mean, its not going to get any better from a $ standpoint.. What are you waiting on?

And replace it with what? At what price? from where?

The one or two actual offers I've gotten weren't 3500 losses they were like 13 THOUSAND dollar losses. We'll see if it's any better now, now that the cars been out longer and maybe the used sellers have more price data on what they can sell it for.

The problem is that I put all my eggs in the Ford basket and then ford stomped on my eggs and shat in my basket. If I'd have thought Ford was going to release something so slow past 60, and if I'd thought they'd be so flat out dishonest about the "boost" situation, I would have hedged my bets with a reservation for something else but now my choices are, after getting screwed by Ford, getting screwed by someone else on another car just because of the way the market is priced now.

If one of you wants to step up any pay me 70 grand for this thing I'll provide you my contact information right now but people keep telling me "It's so easy you can sell it for a profit right now!" and then I go to where they said to go and get an offer for 57 grand or get an email saying they need to see it in person first, not one of these car buyers has panned out or I would have sold it already.

 

[Frankie]

Here's the offer Vroom gave me in November

 

[Frankie]

Maybe part of me still hopes Ford will try and polish this turd a little

 

[Mach1E]

6%. The $3500 profit includes the sales tax factored in. They offered me $63k, about what I paid for it, when it had 1000 miles. Driveway offered $62.2k a couple of weeks ago, with 3000 miles. They sent me the same "appointment" email that you show above but then a few hours later they texted and emailed me an actual offer, without me ever contacting them.

Frankly, Frankie, if I hated the car as much as you seem to hate yours, I would have sold it at a $3500 loss. I mean, its not going to get any better from a $ standpoint.. What are you waiting on?

Lol Frankie replied to me then blocked me. He didnt read the post I linked to.

He called it a $3000 loss when it’s a $4500 gain.

Gotta factor in the $7500 tax credit.

 

[Frankie]

Remember the good old days before the first time slip dropped when everyone thought it was gonna run 12.2 @ 112 or better?

Ford releasing a Mustang GT Performance Edition that costs 70 grand and gets seriously out trapped by a 55k dollar Volvo makes me feel sick to my stomach.

Lmao, 12.7 @ 109 would be a serious miss. Well, how about 12.7 @ 101?!? Jesus Christ, Ford.

Remember that guy that got banned back then for calling us all morons that fell for Ford's marketing?

He was right.

 

[Rabidsquirrel22]

Clicking on the GT / GTPE section of this forum should come with a warning to put on a gas mask. It's so toxic in here.

 

[Neil4Real]

Here's the offer Vroom gave me in November

Then you're getting screwed, they offered me almost $54k for my MME Premium AWD. It also looks like Vroom only lets you put in a GT and doesn't have any options for pano roof, extended range, performance edition or BlueCruise. So that is a horrible place to try and sell your car.

 

[Frankie]

Not sure where you're looking but Vroom lets you put in pano and all GTs are extended range so why do you think they'd make that an option?

Carmax is 59k. Pretty sure that when I posted the 57k number that same person that keeps giving me bad information said "Well of course Vroom is terrible, go down to Carmax and you'll make a profit."

So that's Carmax's number. 59k. Around a 10,000 dollar loss.

So Vroom, Carmax, Carvana, all terrible. Who's left? Driveway? I've never even heard of them, has anyone here actually sold a car to them? Check will probably bounce.

 

[Draconfier]

Not sure where you're looking but Vroom lets you put in pano and all GTs are extended range so why do you think they'd make that an option?

Carmax is 59k. Pretty sure that when I posted the 57k number that same person that keeps giving me bad information said "Well of course Vroom is terrible, go down to Carmax and you'll make a profit."

So that's Carmax's number. 59k. Around a 10,000 dollar loss.

So Vroom, Carmax, Carvana, all terrible. Who's left? Driveway? I've never even heard of them, has anyone here actually sold a car to them? Check will probably bounce.

I think what everyone keeps including and you keep ignoring is the $7500 tax credit.

 

[Frankie]

I think what everyone keeps including and you keep ignoring is the $7500 tax credit.

70k+5000 sales tax -7500 tax credit+1500 tint and clear bra = $69,000-$59,000 from Carmax = $10,000 loss.

 

[dgonso965]

I would like to add my two cents here. I am an electrical engineer with a background in battery systems. I currently have a Model 3 dual motor. This car has different 0-60sec times depending on the SOC of the battery. You will encounter this with every EV I promise. Tesla does not "limit power" visually with gray bars like the Mach E until VERY low SOC (10% or less); however, they limit power through limiting the amount of current that is drawn from the battery; however, there is no visual indication this is happening. Lets say, for example, the battery is at 350V and you pull a peak of 350kW. This would equate to 1000 amps. Later, your battery is now at 300V. To pull the same 350kW, you would need to pull 1166 amps. I do not recall the current limit value on my car but it does exist. It may be 1000A but I am not sure. As the voltage decreases (SOC is decreasing), to get the same power out, more and more current is required. This presents additional issues with the battery in terms of heat generation. If you pull the same amount of power at high SOC vs low SOC, the lower SOC battery will produce more heat in general which degrades the life of the battery (heat = bad for batteries lifespan but good for performance, cold = good for batteries lifespan but bad for performance)

Now for the Mach E, the power limiting is not similar to the way a Tesla limits power. They are being very conservative and limit based on a bunch of different criteria I do not fully understand. There is a lot more that goes into the throttling of the Mach E besides just a max current value.

So in essence, performance decreasing as SOC decreases is totally normal, but it is/should be gradual. The Mach E performance decrease during hard pulls or high speeds is not gradual at all.

 

[LS61303]

I would like to add my two cents here. I am an electrical engineer with a background in battery systems. I currently have a Model 3 dual motor. This car has different 0-60sec times depending on the SOC of the battery. You will encounter this with every EV I promise. Tesla does not "limit power" visually with gray bars like the Mach E until VERY low SOC (10% or less); however, they limit power through limiting the amount of current that is drawn from the battery; however, there is no visual indication this is happening. Lets say, for example, the battery is at 350V and you pull a peak of 350kW. This would equate to 1000 amps. Later, your battery is now at 300V. To pull the same 350kW, you would need to pull 1166 amps. I do not recall the current limit value on my car but it does exist. It may be 1000A but I am not sure. As the voltage decreases (SOC is decreasing), to get the same power out, more and more current is required. This presents additional issues with the battery in terms of heat generation. If you pull the same amount of power at high SOC vs low SOC, the lower SOC battery will produce more heat in general which degrades the life of the battery (heat = bad for batteries lifespan but good for performance, cold = good for batteries lifespan but bad for performance)

Now for the Mach E, the power limiting is not similar to the way a Tesla limits power. They are being very conservative and limit based on a bunch of different criteria I do not fully understand. There is a lot more that goes into the throttling of the Mach E besides just a max current value.

So in essence, performance decreasing as SOC decreases is totally normal, but it is/should be gradual. The Mach E performance decrease during hard pulls or high speeds is not gradual at all.

I think your write up, paired with the information we got from the guys on Out of Spec, makes a compelling explanation of the why behind the power decrease. You mentioned you were unsure of the criteria/differences between Tesla‘s power limiting and Ford’s; the folks in this YouTube video (starting around 21 minutes in) discuss that very topic. Apparently Teslas have a lot more thermometers and temperature sensors all along the drivetrain than what our Mach E’s do, so the Ford engineers don’t have nearly as much real time data to use when considering heat management. So it almost seems like to be overly safe, they made the power limitations very conservative to account for that lack of data. That being said, I am not sure why they didn’t follow Tesla’s lead and give the software more data to monitor, which would ideally make the power cap less intrusive. Instead of just covering it all up with a blanket approach. I am hoping that between more research on the engineering end, and the fleet data they’ve been gathering, they can figure out if the drivetrain and other components are actually getting hot enough to be an issue. If not, that should give them peace of mind, and hopefully they feel comfortable enough to relax the restrictions via OTA updates. As soon as Ford comes out and says that they are letting the GT access more power more often, I am sure consumers will be happy to purchase it. In the meantime, it is a tough sell…

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