Raleigh NC to Sarasota FL (0.75 mi/kWh efficiency!!!)

[D’Roc]

EDIT: This is a joke post everyone.

He's pretending his ICE car is an EV and converting the numbers, but he doesn't do a very good job explaining that. Clickbait, thumbs down.

Wasn’t meant as a joke. Sorry the point was lost on you.

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[Billyk24]

Nah, two speed transmission does squat for highway efficiency.

Dumping permanent magnet front motors (actually dumping them both) and going with brushed motors like BMW is step one. The stopgap is physically disconnecting the front motor like the Hyundai/Kia EVs do or induction front motor like Teslas.

Long-term, folks just need to accept a brick on wheels (aka an SUV) will be poor highway efficiency. Aerodynamics matter the most and also temperatures. When it got cold recently my Rivian R1S went from 2.1 mi/kWh to 1.7 mi/kWh.

If you want high speed charging, go with an 800V (or 1000V like Lucid) EV. 400V is just too darn slow except for small EVs with small battery packs.

We will await results with solid state battery at 400v.

 

[Mach1E]

1 gallon gasoline = 33.7 kWh.

Inefficiency of ICE was one of the things I was emphasizing. BEVs are 3-4 times more energy efficient than ICE.

I’m a huge EV-angelist and see the challenge EVs face, compared to ICE, on long Road Trips (700+ miles). I think a Lucid Air could’ve come pretty close to matching the stats of this trip but that’s still an $80K BEV vs a $8K used 2010 ICE.

I understand the actual energy in gas. But again, it’s not really “equivalent” if most of the energy is wasted.

I know it was just a joke, but it does bring up some decent points. But at the end of the day the real things that matter-
Cost
Range
Efficiency
Refueling

KWh in gas is a “fun fact,” but not really useful in comparing since gas engines aren’t efficient.

 

[AKgrampy]

The big difference, as far as I am concerned, is I do not even think about it when diving ICE. I fill up in Fairbanks and I know winter or summer I can make it to Anchorage without refueling. Same when I drive rentals. I never worry as there is always a fueling station when needed. Maybe someday BEV will be like that but maybe not.

 

[stealthytolkien]

I understand the sense of humor in the post.

I just love driving EVs. Driving my HEV feels boring and lifeless when I do. Loved my Tesla for what it did well and adore my Mach E and still get warm and fuzzy when people turn their heads.

But hear my opinions please: ICE or HEV are far more comfortable, much faster, and low risk for road trips in a country like USA. And they will likely continue to wear that crown for next several years.

And even if EVs outshine ICE in city driving, they still have ways to go before city charging infrastructure is anywhere near ready to require zero planning for those who cannot charge at home.

And entry cost for EV is still too high when a new or 2-3 year old 25 mpg people mover can be had for $25,000. EV car makers are asking for ridiculous prices in comparison which are indicative of the fact that they are still not even close to recouping the research investment, which is expected. The price difference sometimes is literally gasoline for 10-15 years of driving the ICE with added convenience.

Aside from battery and tech costs, EVs should be easier to make in comparison to an ICE with that complicated engine and hundreds of other parts that are simply absent in a BEV. When these costs rationalize, some of the ICE buyer chunk will go to EV naturally. Not everyone has $60,000 to drop on a people mover and see 75% of that money vanish in a year of ownership.

So let’s see, the deterrents for many car buyers from going EV route can still be price, infrastructure, and convenience. I wish that EV lovers stopped defending EVs like their lives depend on it and accept that we are many years away from EV adoption and accept that despite everything, the adoption may not pass 40%.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

So, I left Friday morning with (an optimistic) 400 miles on the guessometer and an outside temperature of 70 degrees. Stopped at 12% SoC at 320 miles. Average efficiency was only 0.73mi/kWh. But 100% reached in only 10 minutes.

Next leg, 275 miles and down to 26% SoC. Again, only 0.73mi/kWh but back to 100% in 15 minutes (failed to read credit card on first attempt).

Destination (97.8 miles) reached with 79% SoC and average efficiency up to 0.82 mi/kWh due to average speeds dropping from between 72 and 84 mph down to 62-77 mph.

I hope it’s been figured out, this was me driving my mom’s ICE vehicle to her winter home. But the point I’m attempting to make is that these are the expectations an average ICE driver would have on a 700 mile trip if they were to convert to an EV.

Other comparative notes:
15 gallon tank = 505 kWh battery
Energy Cost: $84 for 925 kWh or 27.45 gallons. ($0.12/kWh or $3.06/gallon)

I love my MME, my 3rd BEV, and will likely never go back to ICE due to:the convenience of charging daily in my garage, the abundant smooth torque of an EV, and the efficiency in city stop and go traffic.
But a focus of future development for BEVs needs to be highway efficiency (my Taycan had a 2-speed transmission to aid this) and a charging infrastructure with high speeds and cost competitiveness (my recent trip to Vermont had an average cost of $0.48/kWh).

Thoughts?

Energy cost on trips is not a major purchase consideration as it is occasional for most people and would still be competitive with main alternative (flying).

Agree with everything else you said. It is essential to have higher efficiency on highways and in winter vs what we have today. We need a 5 mile per kWh vehicles. We already have the tech for fast charging (Kia, not Ford). The whole industry is work in process and will get there soon.

 

[voxel]

We will await results with solid state battery at 400v.

Cold fusion will happen before Solid State Batteries. Or heck, micro nuclear reactors (https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/what-nuclear-microreactor) or hydrogen fuel cells being widely popular.

SSB have massive hurdles and been promised for 20+ years with still no wide commercial availability.

Sodium-Ion is the future IMO. Already available (yes, you can buy cells for yourself today and slap them into your e-bike, scooter, RC drone, etc.) and now used in an EV in China. Range is overrated IMO. Robust cheap batteries that can be used in wide temperature ranges like Na-Ion will make EVs the default for commuter cars.

400V charging is just a terrible idea and I'm never buying another EV without 800V. It's fine for Bolts and base Model 3s but not for EVs with 100-150 kWh battery packs.

 

[hprose]

I understand the actual energy in gas. But again, it’s not really “equivalent” if most of the energy is wasted.

I know it was just a joke, but it does bring up some decent points. But at the end of the day the real things that matter-
Cost
Range
Efficiency
Refueling

KWh in gas is a “fun fact,” but not really useful in comparing since gas engines aren’t efficient.

I did 415 miles a couple of weeks ago. 2 stops for 33kw each time. Approximately 15 minutes each time. Ford paid the just over $30. Total energy used approximately 140kw. Average speed 78mph. Very happy. Price of batteries has to come down or the ability for more kw per unit of battery to make them cheaper. Prices should then crater. It will happen.

 

[Nikos]

Those are all good points raised in this thread. Efficiency/utilization of energy between ICE/BEV vehicle can be explained for those who understand the concept. 95% of drivers have no concept of efficiency in their ICE vehicles. You can explain the concept to them but most of them cannot comprehend it. Fossil fuels is what they are accustomed too and they don't care what it takes to make them available to them. Although some are intelligent folks, BEVs are a foreign/rocket science concept to them. Because of all the stupid excuses that I hear, I don't explain the BEV concept to anyone, unless they ask me for an honest advice.
I will give them the GOOD, the BAD, and the UGLY. Once they understand it, they need to read and get familiar with the technology and it's many challenges, good or bad. Then make the decision, take the blue pill or the red pill. I know what I just said is crude to some of you, but I've been trying and still do everyday to at least explain BEV vehicles to anyone who ask me and why.
It goes back to 2013 for me, when I dipped my toes to understanding Hybrid technology and my Ford Fusion vehicle. The questions I had to answer. The most prevalent, how long it would take to get your money back for the hybrid tech I was paying for. I didn't care about that part. I trying the new technology to save me money at the pumps even though the price of gas was no more than $1.50 at that time.
Change is very hard on people.
Change on your own accord happens at a snail pace. When you realize you are left behind or you need to catch up with the times, then you try to jump on a fast moving wagon or you just fall behind, engrossed in what you are comfortable with. You become indifferent to anything new.
BEVs are only for the Geeks, the Nerds, the Affluent, the Eccentric, the Oddballs of society.
Don't have to, but I see it in their eyes, their expressions and their attitudes. Ford has an uphill battle to educate, show and introduce BEVs to the masses and their own customers. I thought was easy but it is not. I was naive in the beginning, not anymore.
I have been humbled over the last 3 years of owning my MME.
I love my MME and it is going to be with me for quite some time.
Yes, I agree, the next MME has to have 800V architecture for fast charging. I do like to see 48V architecture, maintain a 100KWH battery or smaller with 350+ range.
Charging infrastructure is inadequate but let us see what happens after February of this year.
Above all, I am not going back to ICE vehicles for now on. I will consider a Plug Hybrid if I live in a city. Electric is the future, no matter the obstacles course I have to endure. I will prevail.!!!!

 

[Logal727]

Mmm, nothing this forum loves more than a math post!

 

[Steady Eddie]

So, I left Friday morning with (an optimistic) 400 miles on the guessometer and an outside temperature of 70 degrees. Stopped at 12% SoC at 320 miles. Average efficiency was only 0.73mi/kWh. But 100% reached in only 10 minutes.

Next leg, 275 miles and down to 26% SoC. Again, only 0.73mi/kWh but back to 100% in 15 minutes (failed to read credit card on first attempt).

Destination (97.8 miles) reached with 79% SoC and average efficiency up to 0.82 mi/kWh due to average speeds dropping from between 72 and 84 mph down to 62-77 mph.

I hope it’s been figured out, this was me driving my mom’s ICE vehicle to her winter home. But the point I’m attempting to make is that these are the expectations an average ICE driver would have on a 700 mile trip if they were to convert to an EV.

Other comparative notes:
15 gallon tank = 505 kWh battery
Energy Cost: $84 for 925 kWh or 27.45 gallons. ($0.12/kWh or $3.06/gallon)

I love my MME, my 3rd BEV, and will likely never go back to ICE due to:the convenience of charging daily in my garage, the abundant smooth torque of an EV, and the efficiency in city stop and go traffic.
But a focus of future development for BEVs needs to be highway efficiency (my Taycan had a 2-speed transmission to aid this) and a charging infrastructure with high speeds and cost competitiveness (my recent trip to Vermont had an average cost of $0.48/kWh).

Thoughts?

Great idea to post this. Puts the inefficiencies of ice into perspective. What it doesn’t do is take the efficiency calculations to the well head. I think I’ll see if google can help.

 

[VaporTrails]

The biggest issue with road trips is the charging speed. Cost of charging is becoming an issue, but they have to be profitable…I get that. IMHO, range is sufficient.

With current battery technology, 800-1000V solves that. However, if I had a battery combination that could sustain 150kW, that would also get perhaps close enough. What if I had a combination of NCM and Solid State, for example? Could I shape the charging curve to be more of a line in the aggregate?

I love my MME, and the road trip hassle is still saving lifelong time total for me. 99% of the time, the charge time is not a factor in being able to use the car.

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