Shopping for a Mach E is not easy- Yet.

[Mach-E VLOG]

Most experts in autonomy have a high confidence we are within a few years of solving it. You say, "They are criticizing the poor naming of the system that implies it will be 100% autonomous." If you believe the naming of Tesla's autonomous system is innacurate simply because it implies it will become autonomous, then it follows that you believe Tesla's system will NEVER be fully autonomous. Otherwise you wouldn't take exception to the naming of the system they are developing.

That's OK, it's your right to believe whatever you want. The experts are who I'm listening to.

I have to assume you are taking similar exception to Ford naming their driver assistance "Copilot 360"? Because I would rather hand off all driving duties to an actual copilot vs. just an autopilot. If "autopilot" is dangerously misleading, then "copilot 360" is even more so.

I've used autopilots in boats and know you still have to monitor them at all times. They will not deviate course for logs, other boats or whales. An autopilot in a boat just holds the set course or route. Also, the FAA does not let pilots drink alcohol or stop monitoring the system simply because they have autopilot set. So I fail to see all the outrage of naming a driver assistance system after these long-established aids even if it were never to become fully autonomous. Airplanes and boats having autopilots does not mean they are autonomous!

People who are upset about the naming convention stayed strangely silent when the same name was applied to boat and airplane control systems. All the negativity about Tesla's chosen name seems like fake outrage. As fake as can be.

Full Self Driving to me (and when Elon says Level 5) means full self driving under any circumstances without the need for a driver or steering wheel. Not going to happen on current Teslas, so yeah it is a stupid and misleading name.

And yes, I think Autopilot is a dumb name and CoPilot isn't as bad but still mildly dumb. It is stupid to compare autopilot in a plane/boat to anything any a car. There are so many more complexities to driving on a road with cars, pedestrians, cyclists, street signs, objects, debris, etc. I don't even like CoPilot. A copilot can takeover for the pilot. CoPilot can't.

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[mburtsvt]

Personally I think we have a better chance of self flying cars that ever seeing FSD cars. Most of that technoligy is all ready is in place.

 

[FPLiptak]

That's because the customer already canceled the order. Dealers cannot order a mach-e. None. Spend some doing some basic research here or the other forums first.

Not sure that this is true. My dealer had a stock order for a Rapid Red Premium AWD ER and offered it to me if it arrived before my Infinite Blue AWD ER and that was in October. At that time there was a possibility that the RR would arrive before the end of the year and make it available for the 2020 Tax Credit. He said they were a "Blue Oval" dealer and that they were allowed to order one for Stock. It did not arrive before my IB and I was not really interested in the RR one.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

my Tesla Model 3 Performance will have level 5 FSD by the time I sell it.

"Level 5 vehicles do not require human attention―the “dynamic driving task” is eliminated. Level 5 cars won’t even have steering wheels or acceleration/braking pedals. They will be free from geofencing, able to go anywhere and do anything that an experienced human driver can do. Fully autonomous cars are undergoing testing in several pockets of the world, but none are yet available to the general public."

5

Full Automation

under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver

All driving modes

You'd lose that bet.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Not sure that this is true. My dealer had a stock order for a Rapid Red Premium AWD ER and offered it to me if it arrived before my Infinite Blue AWD ER and that was in October. At that time there was a possibility that the RR would arrive before the end of the year and make it available for the 2020 Tax Credit. He said they were a "Blue Oval" dealer and that they were allowed to order one for Stock. It did not arrive before my IB and I was not really interested in the RR one.

Your dealer had a stock order because another customer ordered the car through them instead of the website. then that customer canceled or refused the delivery. Dealers can not order the MME at this time beyond their own FCTP car

 

[FPLiptak]

Your dealer had a stock order because another customer ordered the car through them instead of the website. then that customer canceled or refused the delivery. Dealers can not order the MME at this time beyond their own FCTP car

Actually, that does not make sense (canceled order) since the car has not yet been produced (VIN 3FMTK3SU6MMA01907). If it was a customer order I would guess it still would have been produced and shipped. If it was truly a dealer stock order then it would have been delayed so that customer orders could be processed first.

 

[trutolife27]

"Level 5 vehicles do not require human attention―the “dynamic driving task” is eliminated. Level 5 cars won’t even have steering wheels or acceleration/braking pedals. They will be free from geofencing, able to go anywhere and do anything that an experienced human driver can do. Fully autonomous cars are undergoing testing in several pockets of the world, but none are yet available to the general public."

5

Full Automation

under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver

All driving modes

You'd lose that bet.

You're correct he would lose.

Agree and regulations in Europe said it would take 2 to 3 years of testing before they would allow level 5 driving. They are not just going to take elon words for it and say have at it boys. So your still a few years away still. so 2023 or 2024 if lucky.

I'm still taking orders on the flying moped tomorrow everyone for 10,000.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Actually, that does not make sense (canceled order) since the car has not yet been produced (VIN 3FMTK3SU6MMA01907). If it was a customer order I would guess it still would have been produced and shipped. If it was truly a dealer stock order then it would have been delayed so that customer orders could be processed first.

Here's what can happen Frank.

A customer might drive Elon Ford's FCTP and places an order. Maybe a $500 refundable deposit. Several weeks later they decide they made mistake. They really want the new id.4 and cancel their order with Elon Ford (because that's how that part works). The car they ordered isn't even scheduled for production yet, let alone built. You've been here quite a while, you know this part.

So at that point, the dealer can either cancel the order with Ford or they can keep the order slated to go to Joe Teslastan. Some dealers cancel, others don't. When Joe Teslastan's mach-e arrives, the dealer knows Joe T doesn't want the car. So they prep it, add it to their inventory and sell it. Why? Well, the car is a hot commodity atm and profit is profit. There's also no holdback on the MME. So the dealer doing this may add ADM to the MSRP. Why? It raises the starting point for price negotiations and raises the "potential profit margin."

And for Ford? They don't know about any of the above because that's the way the dealer system works. As far as they're concerned that MME is going to Joe Teslastan at Elon Ford. Are there safeguards to prevent abuse? Yes, but they're all after the fact. Ford can make the $80,000 Raptor and other F150's harder to come by for Elon Ford.

 

[LagerHead]

Full Self Driving to me (and when Elon says Level 5) means full self driving under any circumstances without the need for a driver or steering wheel. Not going to happen on current Teslas, so yeah it is a stupid and misleading name.

Yeah, you keep saying it will not happen on 2021 or older Teslas. Ever. And you are correct that the driver and steering wheel are superflous on an autonomous car, at least when used in autonomous mode. However, you seem to be be implying that having someone sitting in the driver's seat or the presence of a steering wheel precludes FSD from happening. Since neither of those things reduces the likelihood of FSD, that's not a valid conclusion. It's common sense that the first FSD cars will probably still have a steering wheel and maybe even someone sitting in the seat behind it. Of course if the car is ONLY used as a FSD car then the steering wheel would be removed and capped. But that would preclude it's use as a human driven vehicle, for example if the owner hadn't purchased the software that completes the FSD system. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

And yes, I think Autopilot is a dumb name and CoPilot isn't as bad but still mildly dumb. It is stupid to compare autopilot in a plane/boat to anything any a car. There are so many more complexities to driving on a road with cars, pedestrians, cyclists, street signs, objects, debris, etc. I don't even like CoPilot. A copilot can takeover for the pilot. CoPilot can't.

Wait. An autopilot in a boat or airplane shouldn't be compared to a car because it's much more difficult to drive a car? Yet anyone can get a license to drive a car while an airplane needs years of training? And an autonomous car won't have a steering wheel but a boat or plane with autopilot still has a steering wheel even though the tasks are so much simpler? That's confusing.

Either the term autopilot implies full autonomy or it doesn't. My perspective is neither planes or boats are fully autonomous yet they all have autopilots. This confuses no one. It creates no danger. It doesn't misrepresent what an "autopilot" can do. And yet people are yelling and screaming that Tesla has been wreckless and misleadingly dangerous by calling their driver assist system 'autopilot' while Ford just picked a 'mildly dumb' name for their driver assist system? You know, "Copilot 360". Copilots are fully trained pilots authorized to fly the plane even if the "pilot" is not present or awake. I guess I don't see how 'Autopilot' is dangerously misleading while "Copilot" is only "mildly dumb".

I have a hard time believing you cannot see the double standard being applied here. It's my observation that the outrage at Tesla's naming convention is fake outrage. It's just a grasping at straws attempt to paint the system as dangerous by people actively trying to harm Tesla's reputation. Nothing leads me to believe it's a genuine concern for peoples safety.

Did you know actual data, logs of miles covered without accidents, actually shows that the millions of miles driven with Tesla's Autopilot are multiple times more safe than miles driven without Autopilot engaged? This is what the actual data shows and it's why the NHTSA is not shutting down Tesla or their driver assistance system. Because it makes the cars more safe than cars without it. Yet people are outraged over the name Tesla chose for their driver's assistance suite?

The world could use less fake outrage.

 

[AllenXS]

Did you know actual data, logs of miles covered without accidents, actually shows that the millions of miles driven with Tesla's Autopilot are multiple times more safe than miles driven without Autopilot engaged? This is what the actual data shows and it's why the NHTSA is not shutting down Tesla or their driver assistance system. Because it makes the cars more safe than cars without it. Yet people are outraged over the name Tesla chose for their driver's assistance suite?

The world could use less fake outrage.

Why are we wasting so much time on this forum discussing T-Karts. Isn't there a separate conversation place for that. When I spoke with the local Tesla office they said FSD will happen soon and its better to buy FSD online just after getting your T-Kart to save tax, and the next price increase. They push it and talk about what it will do and its coming soon. And they say they are no pressure sales.

And they have just dropped the deposit to $100. So glad they're not worried about sales and life is good in Muskville. Sorry, I've elon gated the conversation.

 

[SAM]

That's because the customer already canceled the order. Dealers cannot order a mach-e. None. Spend some doing some basic research here or the other forums first.

Then, what does it mean when I check my dealer's inventory and several cars are listed as "dealer ordered"? It means car isn't there yet but the dealer has it on order.

Also, X-Plan is worth more than $700 for a Premium 4X. On my order of a Premium 4X it is $849 off ($54,959 vs 55,800 total listed right on the order preview). On top of that, X-Plan caps the fees at $100, which is another $300 in savings at my dealer. So, total savings is more than $1,000, which would certainly apply to the GB FE that he was talking about.

Where do you get your information??

 

[Mach-E VLOG]

Yeah, you keep saying it will not happen on 2021 or older Teslas. Ever. And you are correct that the driver and steering wheel are superflous on an autonomous car, at least when used in autonomous mode. However, you seem to be be implying that having someone sitting in the driver's seat or the presence of a steering wheel precludes FSD from happening. Since neither of those things reduces the likelihood of FSD, that's not a valid conclusion. It's common sense that the first FSD cars will probably still have a steering wheel and maybe even someone sitting in the seat behind it. Of course if the car is ONLY used as a FSD car then the steering wheel would be removed and capped. But that would preclude it's use as a human driven vehicle, for example if the owner hadn't purchased the software that completes the FSD system. It's not an all or nothing proposition.



Wait. An autopilot in a boat or airplane shouldn't be compared to a car because it's much more difficult to drive a car? Yet anyone can get a license to drive a car while an airplane needs years of training? And an autonomous car won't have a steering wheel but a boat or plane with autopilot still has a steering wheel even though the tasks are so much simpler? That's confusing.

Either the term autopilot implies full autonomy or it doesn't. My perspective is neither planes or boats are fully autonomous yet they all have autopilots. This confuses no one. It creates no danger. It doesn't misrepresent what an "autopilot" can do. And yet people are yelling and screaming that Tesla has been wreckless and misleadingly dangerous by calling their driver assist system 'autopilot' while Ford just picked a 'mildly dumb' name for their driver assist system? You know, "Copilot 360". Copilots are fully trained pilots authorized to fly the plane even if the "pilot" is not present or awake. I guess I don't see how 'Autopilot' is dangerously misleading while "Copilot" is only "mildly dumb".

I have a hard time believing you cannot see the double standard being applied here. It's my observation that the outrage at Tesla's naming convention is fake outrage. It's just a grasping at straws attempt to paint the system as dangerous by people actively trying to harm Tesla's reputation. Nothing leads me to believe it's a genuine concern for peoples safety.

Did you know actual data, logs of miles covered without accidents, actually shows that the millions of miles driven with Tesla's Autopilot are multiple times more safe than miles driven without Autopilot engaged? This is what the actual data shows and it's why the NHTSA is not shutting down Tesla or their driver assistance system. Because it makes the cars more safe than cars without it. Yet people are outraged over the name Tesla chose for their driver's assistance suite?

The world could use less fake outrage.

I didn't imply anything about the steering wheel. I only quoted Level 5 definitions so the rest of your point is a waste.

Ask most people and they equate Autopilot with the car driving itself and the driver is the backup. With a CoPilot, most people assume the driver is in control with the ASSSTANCE of a copilot system. Still not a great analogy, but a huge difference. I think both names should be changed (hello BlueCruise) and you seem to argue one is great and the other makes no sense.

The National Transportation Safety Board has criticized the way NHTSA has been handling things with autonomous vehicles so changes may be coming. And the data you bring up has been proven to be flawed and selective as well. For those that don't know, the biggest problem with those AutoPilot stats is that many people only enable AutoPilot in optimal conditions - good weather, nice highway, etc. Humans, on the other hand, drive in the rain/snow, on busy city streets, etc. where AutoPilot would fail.

You keep misreading and selectively pulling stuff up including stuff that you have little knowledge about. It seems you are just repeatedly bringing up Tesla fanboy talking points. In this thread and others, you turn them off topic and into defenses of Tesla and Elon. I understand you've bought into the package and I'm sorry if you feel attacked for making your purchase. But you don't need to ruin every thread by making it a Tesla/Elon defense thread.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Then, what does it mean when I check my dealer's inventory and several cars are listed as "dealer ordered"? It means car isn't there yet but the dealer has it on order.

Also, X-Plan is worth more than $700 for a Premium 4X. On my order of a Premium 4X it is $849 off ($54,959 vs 55,800 total listed right on the order preview). On top of that, X-Plan caps the fees at $100, which is another $300 in savings at my dealer. So, total savings is more than $1,000, which would certainly apply to the GB FE that he was talking about.

Where do you get your information??

I made no comment about xplan. None. What is your point? You gave xplan issues? Ask someone who cares about it.

and dealers cannot order an MME beyond their FCTP car. No matter what your website search tells you. All MMEs were originally special ordered for a real live person. All of them.

where do you get your nonsense from?

 

[mburtsvt]

I didn't imply anything about the steering wheel. I only quoted Level 5 definitions so the rest of your point is a waste.

Ask most people and they equate Autopilot with the car driving itself and the driver is the backup. With a CoPilot, most people assume the driver is in control with the ASSSTANCE of a copilot system. Still not a great analogy, but a huge difference. I think both names should be changed (hello BlueCruise) and you seem to argue one is great and the other makes no sense.

The National Transportation Safety Board has criticized the way NHTSA has been handling things with autonomous vehicles so changes may be coming. And the data you bring up has been proven to be flawed and selective as well. For those that don't know, the biggest problem with those AutoPilot stats is that many people only enable AutoPilot in optimal conditions - good weather, nice highway, etc. Humans, on the other hand, drive in the rain/snow, on busy city streets, etc. where AutoPilot would fail.

You keep misreading and selectively pulling stuff up including stuff that you have little knowledge about. It seems you are just repeatedly bringing up Tesla fanboy talking points. In this thread and others, you turn them off topic and into defenses of Tesla and Elon. I understand you've bought into the package and I'm sorry if you feel attacked for making your purchase. But you don't need to ruin every thread by making it a Tesla/Elon defense thread.

Tesla's reality distortion field in full force. Life is better when you put him on ignore.

 

[trutolife27]

I made no comment about xplan. None. What is your point? You gave xplan issues? Ask someone who cares about it.

and dealers cannot order an MME beyond their FCTP car. No matter what your website search tells you. All MMEs were originally special ordered for a real live person. All of them.

where do you get your nonsense from?

fact

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