Shopping for a Mach E is not easy- Yet.

[LagerHead]

7,000 self-driving, it was brand new she paid a lot more for the tesla lol. Again a delay is a delay but he has changed his tune so many times about it and keeps saying this year or this year. Sooner or later it's not gonna happen. That makes it a scam. It just is. In history, there are tons of lawsuits about matters just like this. Where companies promise things and never deliver. Almost like a Ponzi scheme.

A delay does not make it a scam. Elon can only guess how quickly development will go. If you have seen the driving visualizations of the most recent beta FSD on youTube videos then you know how far it has come.

Literally amazing! No one else is even close. I can hardly wait for Tesla to distribute FSD beta in a wider release within a few weeks! It's mind-blowing technology! And I only paid $4K on my Model 3 Performance, now it would cost $10K.

Sponsored

 

[trutolife27]

And i'm done.

 

[Mach-E VLOG]

There is no shortage of youTube videos slamming Tesla. That is very different from a fraud. If anything, the fraud is perpetrated by all the misleading anti-Tesla hit pieces.

Answer me this: If Tesla is such a fraud, then how is it that they have the highest customer satisfaction rating in the car business? If that video was typical of what FSD purchasers think, there is no way they would have such high ratings.

You're trying to deflect. How many years now has Elon promised FSD was right around the corner? Even the name is misleading. Full Self Driving will never be full self driving although Elon claims it will be. It is a driver assistance feature. It is really good. I'd call it amazing even. But it will never be full self driving.

How much do you want to get that when you sell your car, you won't have full self driving? And I'll bet you won't even have Full Self Driving that's not beta.

Before you jump the gun, remember that Elon had said FSD will be Level 5.

If you are ready for that bet, how about when will robotaxis from Tesla hit the streets? Ones that are regular customer cars with no drivers.

 

[BMT1071]

There is no shortage of youTube videos slamming Tesla. That is very different from a fraud. If anything, the fraud is perpetrated by all the misleading anti-Tesla hit pieces.

Answer me this: If Tesla is such a fraud, then how is it that they have the highest customer satisfaction rating in the car business? If that video was typical of what FSD purchasers think, there is no way they would have such high ratings.

Guess that all depends on who you ask:
https://www.thecarconnection.com/ne...ighest-owner-satisfaction-tesla-has-the-worst
They do better wtih Consumer Reports:
https://insideevs.com/news/486130/t...r.&text=Tesla scored 5/5 in,and 1/5 for Value.

 

[shadowsjc]

Not sure what's funnier: the multi-page Tesla thrashing that's derailing a thread that has nothing to do with tesla,

or

The white knight defending Tesla's reputational honor to the death.

 

[trutolife27]

Not sure what's funnier: the multi-page Tesla thrashing that's derailing a thread that has nothing to do with tesla,

or

The white knight defending Tesla's reputational honor to the death.

Well, I just want to let you all know I'm selling full self-flying mopeds starting Friday. only 10,000 dollars. top speed of 500mph. All you get right now is a bicycle but with the OTA update, it will be self-flying in 2 years.

Taking orders soon
I know it sounds crazy cheap, but it will happen don't worry.

 

[mburtsvt]

I just tried pricing a Model 3 on KBB with and without FSD. The prices were different by a couple of thousand dollars only removing FSD. Keep in mind, KBB isn't always accurate for used Tesla pricing data because they use Model year to define the available options while Tesla will typically make model changes mid-year. KBB fails to account for this. That makes some of the options menus non-sensical (for example, sometimes advanced auto-pilot must also be removed from the options when removing FSD because it was no longer sold like that). KBB doesn't properly account for each sale in their databse. But even the most basic, simple test shows that a car with FSD is worth more than a car without FSD. So your first claim is false.

In the most recent quarter that Tesla has reported. the sales subject to lease accounting were 6% for the Models S/X and 7% for Models 3/Y. So your second claim is also false.

Tesla Q1 2021 Vehicle Production & Deliveries | Tesla Investor Relations

It's difficult for me to reconcile the difference between what you post here as fact vs. actual verifiable fact. Nobody likes misleading and inaccurate information so cut it out.

So at he end of the day FSD adds very little additional real value to a used Tesla. Got it. Below is the same Tesla with the same options except that one has FSD as an option. I get that you have to come up with some KBB disclaimer since the industry standard for used car sale information does not fit your fanboy agenda. Deal with the reality. People who paid for FSD were scammed. I stand by my else statement for the past 3-5 years, but thats for the single quarter info.

 

[LagerHead]

Not sure what's funnier: the multi-page Tesla thrashing that's derailing a thread that has nothing to do with tesla,

or

The white knight defending Tesla's reputational honor to the death.

Just to be clear here, I'm not defending Tesla's honor, I'm defending the truth. Calling Tesla a fraud does not pass the sniff test. The SEC would love to take Elon down for fraud, but they can't. You know why? Because being late with a delivery or development of a feature is not fraud. It's really that simple.

Personally, I think Elon is far too optimistic on estimated completion timelines, given the difficulty of the under-taking, but that doesn't make him criminal. Yet the haters keep repeating he's a fraud.

We can do without all the hate. I think we can all agree without Elon Musk, the Mach-e wouldn't even exist yet!

 

[LagerHead]

You're trying to deflect. How many years now has Elon promised FSD was right around the corner? Even the name is misleading. Full Self Driving will never be full self driving although Elon claims it will be. It is a driver assistance feature. It is really good. I'd call it amazing even. But it will never be full self driving.

How much do you want to get that when you sell your car, you won't have full self driving? And I'll bet you won't even have Full Self Driving that's not beta.

Before you jump the gun, remember that Elon had said FSD will be Level 5.

If you are ready for that bet, how about when will robotaxis from Tesla hit the streets? Ones that are regular customer cars with no drivers.

I'll just make a gentlemen's bet with you, from one EV owner to another, that my Tesla Model 3 Performance will have level 5 FSD by the time I sell it. We can do a virtual handshake on it and call it good.

However, like everyone else I know that has purchased FSD, we all know there are no guarantees. All of us have different odds and timelines if and when it will happen, none of us think there is zero risk it will prove more difficult than thought and get pushed into the next decade. I'm roughly in the middle of the possible scenarios, with a best guess of about a year or two from now. Some are convinced that the first rudimentary FSD will happen in less than a year and I wouldn't rule that out as the progress I've seen recently is difficult to comprehend (how fast it's improving).

Robotaxis are not even a question beyond FSD - when FSD reaches level 5 there WILL be robotaxis. The economic case is too strong for one to NOT follow the other.

As adults, we are free to have different opinions on these things but calling something a fraud needs evidence beyond someone's disbelief that it's even possible. I'll remind that there was no shortage of people who were certain that heavier than air flight was possible right up until the Wright Brother's proved them wrong. And they were just as certain as the people who now say FSD will never happen. In fact, some people claimed the Wright Brother's were frauds years after they had demonstrated flight in front of large crowds.

People are funny that way - they often think they know things are a fact when they are simply opinion. And sometimes wrong opinions at that. One thing I'm certain of is there is no reason to disrespect fellow EV owners simply because you have different opinions.

 

[Mach-E VLOG]

I'll just make a gentlemen's bet with you, from one EV owner to another, that my Tesla Model 3 Performance will have level 5 FSD by the time I sell it. We can do a virtual handshake on it and call it good.

However, like everyone else I know that has purchased FSD, we all know there are no guarantees. All of us have different odds and timelines if and when it will happen, none of us think there is zero risk it will prove more difficult than thought and get pushed into the next decade. I'm roughly in the middle of the possible scenarios, with a best guess of about a year or two from now. Some are convinced that the first rudimentary FSD will happen in less than a year and I wouldn't rule that out as the progress I've seen recently is difficult to comprehend (how fast it's improving).

Robotaxis are not even a question beyond FSD - when FSD reaches level 5 there WILL be robotaxis. The economic case is too strong for one to NOT follow the other.

As adults, we are free to have different opinions on these things but calling something a fraud needs evidence beyond someone's disbelief that it's even possible. I'll remind that there was no shortage of people who were certain that heavier than air flight was possible right up until the Wright Brother's proved them wrong. And they were just as certain as the people who now say FSD will never happen. In fact, some people claimed the Wright Brother's were frauds years after they had demonstrated flight in front of large crowds.

People are funny that way - they often think they know things are a fact when they are simply opinion. And sometimes wrong opinions at that. One thing I'm certain of is there is no reason to disrespect fellow EV owners simply because you have different opinions.

You can bet whatever you like. There will be no Level 5 from Tesla on any current car.

It isn't disrespectful to say that I think Elon Musk has failed to deliver on his promise for Level 5 for years and will continue to do so. I never said fraud, I just said a lot of people are tired of his BS, including Tesla owners that have nothing to show for their "purchase." I believe they and you are naïve. I believe Tesla is probably going to hide behind the fact they will call it "Beta" for years just like auto steering is still in "beta." Just so you know, there is no Level 5 beta. It is either Level 5 or it isn't. Tesla will also probably hind behind the fact that "regulators won't allow it." It gives them a scapegoat for their own failings.

The Wright Brother analogy is silly, too. Just because there were people that denied that doesn't mean the same thing is happening now. There are people that have studied autonomous vehicles for years and understand the difficulties in Level 5. The ones that are "believers" tend to not be any expert but know Elon's tweets. These are the same people that claim they are now "experts" on the stock market and especially short selling. This blind following of Elon is truly distorting their evaluations.

A history of Elon's statements:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...irst-week-of-march.221412/page-2#post-5358292

 

[trutolife27]

Germany didn't like Elon words about what to call it. On going cases on it also. Some countries are seeing through the scam.

Out of Elon own mouth the life span of a tesla ev is 10 years and move on. You have people who paid for this as far as 6 years and nothing yet. Thousands for something maybe you get 3 years of use out of if it ever comes out. Total scam.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/14/for...for-using-customers-to-test-its-fsd-beta.html

 

[LagerHead]

You can bet whatever you like. There will be no Level 5 from Tesla on any current car.

I was just trying to be accommodating to your request for a bet. It sounds like you are taking me up on it. Fair enough. Unlike you being certain it can't happen, I'm not so sure. I think FSD is very likely but not certain.

The Wright Brother analogy is silly, too. Just because there were people that denied that doesn't mean the same thing is happening now. There are people that have studied autonomous vehicles for years and understand the difficulties in Level 5. The ones that are "believers" tend to not be any expert but know Elon's tweets. These are the same people that claim they are now "experts" on the stock market and especially short selling. This blind following of Elon is truly distorting their evaluations.

Most experts in the field think it will happen, that it's not a matter of "if" but "when". I tend to believe them. More experts in AI think it will happen than won't. Of course most people who think it will happen tend to not be experts, that is a simple function of how few experts there are relative to the number of amatuers who follow the technology as it is developed. It's also true that most people who think it won't happen are not experts either but amatuers. I put my faith in the majority of experts and they tend to think it will happen.

I don't think the Wright Brother's analogy is silly. It vividly illustrates how large segments of the population who are not schooled in the technology in question (aeronautics in the case of the Wrights) will loudly and absolutely claim something that seems too fantastic, too foreign or too difficult, is "impossible". "Flying an aeroplane is impossible", they said loudly and repeatedly. Educated newspaper editors openly mocked the Wright Brothers efforts, said they were crazy. All the while the experts were methodically solving the required problems using state of the art techniques that the populous was largely ignorant of. It's normal for a lot of people to believe it can't happen. History shows us this repeatedly. And those people are generally very vocal about it. It's human nature for people to become uncomfortable when their world-view is threatened. Most people believe you need a human to safely drive a car. I get that. That doesn't make it so. The evidence is actually pointing in the other direction.

A lot of people thought Tesla would go bankrupt, that they could never make a profit, that there was no demand for electric cars, that the demand that did exist would dry up when the Federal Tax Credit went away. Tesla proved every last one of them wrong. Elon Musk has been proving naysayers wrong for decades now. Even experts in the space industry, actual rocket scientists, said Elon could never land an orbital class rocket for re-use. He proved the experts wrong too. Not once but many times. One rocket has already been re-used at least 9 times to carry cargo into orbit. Elon has tried many big challenges. He has taken longer than he projected on most of them but he has a long history of succeeding.

People say, "Don't bet against Elon Musk". These are not his fans but his detractors. They learned the hard way, it cost them collectively billions of dollars to bet against Elon Musk. They are smarter but poorer because of it. Education can be expensive!

A history of Elon's statements:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...irst-week-of-march.221412/page-2#post-5358292

It's no secret that Elon has been overly optimistic on the timeline for FSD. I don't know of anyone who is not aware of that, Elon included. I think that's baked into most peoples decision whether to buy FSD or not. Most choose not to. And that's a rational choice too. I don't think it's productive to belittle people who want to support the effort, especially when that effort has the noble goal of saving hundreds of thousands of needless deaths and even more pain and suffering.

To be clear, I didn't say that you personally called Elon and Tesla a fraud, and I haven't denied your right to believe it's impossible - I was speaking to the very vocal people who repetitively call Elon and Tesla a fraud. Because they do this without any credible evidence of fraud. They believe if they say it enough times it will start to be taken for the truth. In a similar manner, the people who think Elon will fail at FSD repeatedly claim he will fail. They state it as a fact, as if they know more about it than he does. They are emboldened by his missed projections, all the while ignoring the incredible progress happening right under their noses. They only see what their brains allow them to see.

 

[Mach-E VLOG]

I was just trying to be accommodating to your request for a bet. It sounds like you are taking me up on it. Fair enough. Unlike you being certain it can't happen, I'm not so sure. I think FSD is very likely but not certain.



Most experts in the field think it will happen, that it's not a matter of "if" but "when". I tend to believe them. More experts in AI think it will happen than won't. Of course most people who think it will happen tend to not be experts, that is a simple function of how few experts there are relative to the number of amatuers who follow the technology as it is developed. It's also true that most people who think it won't happen are not experts either but amatuers. I put my faith in the majority of experts and they tend to think it will happen.

I don't think the Wright Brother's analogy is silly. It vividly illustrates how large segments of the population who are not schooled in the technology in question (aeronautics in the case of the Wrights) will loudly and absolutely claim something that seems too fantastic, too foreign or too difficult, is "impossible". "Flying an aeroplane is impossible", they said loudly and repeatedly. Educated newspaper editors openly mocked the Wright Brothers efforts, said they were crazy. All the while the experts were methodically solving the required problems using state of the art techniques that the populous was largely ignorant of. It's normal for a lot of people to believe it can't happen. History shows us this repeatedly. And those people are generally very vocal about it. It's human nature for people to become uncomfortable when their world-view is threatened. Most people believe you need a human to safely drive a car. I get that. That doesn't make it so. The evidence is actually pointing in the other direction.

A lot of people thought Tesla would go bankrupt, that they could never make a profit, that there was no demand for electric cars, that the demand that did exist would dry up when the Federal Tax Credit went away. Tesla proved every last one of them wrong. Elon Musk has been proving naysayers wrong for decades now. Even experts in the space industry, actual rocket scientists, said Elon could never land an orbital class rocket for re-use. He proved the experts wrong too. Not once but many times. One rocket has already been re-used at least 9 times to carry cargo into orbit. Elon has tried many big challenges. He has taken longer than he projected on most of them but he has a long history of succeeding.

People say, "Don't bet against Elon Musk". These are not his fans but his detractors. They learned the hard way, it cost them collectively billions of dollars to bet against Elon Musk. They are smarter but poorer because of it. Education can be expensive!



It's no secret that Elon has been overly optimistic on the timeline for FSD. I don't know of anyone who is not aware of that, Elon included. I think that's baked into most peoples decision whether to buy FSD or not. Most choose not to. And that's a rational choice too. I don't think it's productive to belittle people who want to support the effort, especially when that effort has the noble goal of saving hundreds of thousands of needless deaths and even more pain and suffering.

To be clear, I didn't say that you personally called Elon and Tesla a fraud, and I haven't denied your right to believe it's impossible - I was speaking to the very vocal people who repetitively call Elon and Tesla a fraud. Because they do this without any credible evidence of fraud. They believe if they say it enough times it will start to be taken for the truth. In a similar manner, the people who think Elon will fail at FSD repeatedly claim he will fail. They state it as a fact, as if they know more about it than he does. They are emboldened by his missed projections, all the while ignoring the incredible progress happening right under their noses. They only see what their brains allow them to see.

Has anyone here said Level 5 is impossible? Nope. Has Elon stated it should be done "next year" for several years? Yep. Do experts in the field of autonomy say it is impossible? Nope. Do they think Tesla will offer Level 5 (not the marketing BS FSD) on current vehicles? Nope.

No one is ignoring the progress. They are criticizing his bold claims that have proven for years to be untrue. They are criticizing the poor naming of the system that implies it will be 100% autonomous.

You act like you are relying on the experts and anyone that doubts Tesla is an amateur. But what you are doing is selectively listening to certain experts instead of taking in the consensus of many experts.

 

[mburtsvt]

Tesla’s reality distortion field, and it’s effect on fanboys.

As a former Apple employee for 12 years, (2000 - 2013). I can understand what the Tesla poster is going through. I saw it everyday in our customers and several employees. RDF, (Reality distortion field) is a real thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field


At the end of the day belief and constant reinforcement causes a bend in an individual reality. Defense of several un defendable positions is common. For the most part it’s harmless, but the mental “crashing” when reality set in could be devastating.

 

[LagerHead]

Has anyone here said Level 5 is impossible? Nope. Has Elon stated it should be done "next year" for several years? Yep. Do experts in the field of autonomy say it is impossible? Nope. Do they think Tesla will offer Level 5 (not the marketing BS FSD) on current vehicles? Nope.

No one is ignoring the progress. They are criticizing his bold claims that have proven for years to be untrue. They are criticizing the poor naming of the system that implies it will be 100% autonomous.

You act like you are relying on the experts and anyone that doubts Tesla is an amateur. But what you are doing is selectively listening to certain experts instead of taking in the consensus of many experts.

Most experts in autonomy have a high confidence we are within a few years of solving it. You say, "They are criticizing the poor naming of the system that implies it will be 100% autonomous." If you believe the naming of Tesla's autonomous system is innacurate simply because it implies it will become autonomous, then it follows that you believe Tesla's system will NEVER be fully autonomous. Otherwise you wouldn't take exception to the naming of the system they are developing.

That's OK, it's your right to believe whatever you want. The experts are who I'm listening to.

I have to assume you are taking similar exception to Ford naming their driver assistance "Copilot 360"? Because I would rather hand off all driving duties to an actual copilot vs. just an autopilot. If "autopilot" is dangerously misleading, then "copilot 360" is even more so.

I've used autopilots in boats and know you still have to monitor them at all times. They will not deviate course for logs, other boats or whales. An autopilot in a boat just holds the set course or route. Also, the FAA does not let pilots drink alcohol or stop monitoring the system simply because they have autopilot set. So I fail to see all the outrage of naming a driver assistance system after these long-established aids even if it were never to become fully autonomous. Airplanes and boats having autopilots does not mean they are autonomous!

People who are upset about the naming convention stayed strangely silent when the same name was applied to boat and airplane control systems. All the negativity about Tesla's chosen name seems like fake outrage. As fake as can be.

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