SR Battery or ER Battery

[portlandg]

I'm trying to figure how much earlier I'd be leaving for the airport (and returning) if driving 200 miles each way to the airport. I guess it depends in part on what charging options there are along the way, if there's backups, and how dependable it all is. 200 miles at high speed is probably more than one safe home charge. Plus you don't want to leave a BEV parked for days/weeks on near empty anyway, as it slowly drains power. So you'd need to do a charge along the way. Probably want to do a near full one too (30-40 minutes) as few people want to be leaving the airport to drive home starting from near empty.

At highway speeds, that's probably a 3-3.5 hour drive each way. Figure 45 mins-1 hr for a charge stop (with a little buffer in there in case the first place doesn't have an available charger). And 2-3 hour arrival before the flight (depending on domestic or intl). So leaving home potentially 7 hours prior to flight time?

Might be a "stay the night at an airport hotel" scenario (especially if they have an overnight charger).

In my current car (Kuga 2Lt ST line X AWD) I can get all the way to the airport and back about 3/4 before I fill up. So if I can get 1/2 way back in Mach e I will be very happy. Journey time to airport should be the same. Park at airport with just under 1/2 charge then stop on way back for 1 hour instead of 30 mins (comfort break and fuel). In theory no need for range anxiety there. Sounds good to me.

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[SJ_Okay]

So yes, if you suddenly decide to switch your driving style or the trip in question is much different than your average, the resulting mpg will be off.

So exactly as I said... Real world is entirely dependent on how you drive. Everything else is estimated... past driving style is factored, but driving style is just one aspect of many... the estimate does not include things like what fuel you use, the topography of your trips, the traffic levels or even the time of day. Not in my car anyway. Furthermore an ICE is generally less efficient around town whereby an EV is the opposite... which takes me back to my original point, that I feel confident that I would be able to get more mileage in the MME than in my ICE, based on my driving environment... and in case I still need to make this clear, I said MY driving style and environment... not everyone’s! This is my observation, of my car, based on my driving. Knowing what we know about EV efficiency pertaining to my style of driving and environment, I’d say MY driving of the MME is likely to be more efficient than in MY ICE.

 

[dbsb3233]

Which do you think is the bigger issue for potential buyers? The slow charge times or the not being able to charge nearly anywhere? I know it’s a combination, but which do you think is the bigger deterrent?

Mostly the slow charge times. Although it depends on which buyers.

If one has secure, dedicated charging at home every night, and just needs to retail charge on a road trip once or twice a year, then it's availability of chargers along their routes. A few slow recharges along the route of very infrequent trips isn't that big of a deal.

But that's the smaller group of potential buyers. The bigger group is people that don't have secure, dedicated home charging (typically people that live in apartments), and thus need to retail charge most the time. In that case, the slow charging time is the bigger hurdle IMO. A few 30 minute charges a year on a road trip is a minor annoyance. But 2 or 3 per week is a major annoyance. And for most, I suspect it's a complete non-starter. I know it would be for me.

Unless on-demand charging times come down dramatically (like, <5 minutes for a 10-80% charge), I think the potential mainstream customer base for BEVs is mostly limited to those that can dependably slow charge while they're off doing their normal routine (i.e. at home sleeping, at work for 8 hours, etc). Not being stuck with the vehicle wasting 30 minutes all the time.

 

[SJ_Okay]

Unless on-demand charging times come down dramatically (like, <5 minutes for a 10-80% charge), I think the potential mainstream customer base for BEVs is mostly limited to those that can slow charge while they're off doing their normal routine (i.e. at home sleeping, at work for 8 hours, etc).

Street lamp chargers might be able to help make slow overnight charging more accessible for those without off street parking. ??

 

[dbsb3233]

Street lamp chargers might be able to help make slow overnight charging more accessible for those without off street parking. ??

Could be. The key IMO is whether they're guaranteed. I'd want to be 100% sure I could get one upon arriving home every night. And not be at risk of playing musical chairs driving around trying to find an open one.

Even if it's a guaranteed parking spot+charger, then there's the pricing issue to consider. One of the biggest selling points of a BEV is fuel that's much cheaper than gas (to help make up the major difference in vehicle purchase price). In my case, for instance, home charging at my residential rate works out to about 1/3rd the cost per-mile for gasoline. So it depends on what they're charging to use those street lamp chargers.

Retail charging tends to be much more expensive. In fact, it pretty much wipes out that savings (although that's compared to relatively cheap US gas prices; it may be different in the UK). Maybe street lamp chargers would be a government service and priced lower.

 

[SJ_Okay]

Maybe street lamp chargers would be a government service and priced lower.

That’s what’s happening here in the UK, and they’re dirt cheap... £38 a month for 800kwh.

 

[symos]

So exactly as I said... Real world is entirely dependent on how you drive. Everything else is estimated... past driving style is factored, but driving style is just one aspect of many... the estimate does not include things like what fuel you use, the topography of your trips, the traffic levels or even the time of day. Not in my car anyway. Furthermore an ICE is generally less efficient around town whereby an EV is the opposite... which takes me back to my original point, that I feel confident that I would be able to get more mileage in the MME than in my ICE, based on my driving environment... and in case I still need to make this clear, I said MY driving style and environment... not everyone’s! This is my observation, of my car, based on my driving. Knowing what we know about EV efficiency pertaining to my style of driving and environment, I’d say MY driving of the MME is likely to be more efficient than in MY ICE.

No, NOT exactly as you said, far from it. But now you're just doing what you previously accused @LYTMCQ of doing.

You said, and I quote, "Yet with EVs now giving comparable ranges on full charges, everyone has range anxiety, which is bonkers.", when everyone knows the above is NOT true in the real world for the typical, "standard" range EV (say the SR MME) compared to the typical ICE (say your Mazda), even for city driving.

You also "backed up" this claim by comparing trip computer estimates (which take into account your actual, personal fuel consumption history) with WLTP rating, which makes absolutely no sense, since they are not comparable at all. And then you just dismiss that by saying "they are all estimates anyway, they hold no value". Which is not only untrue (taking into account the usual caveats, obviously), but destroys your own argument as well.

And in the end you're saying "I was only talking about me", which, first of all, was clearly not the case and second of all, is still NOT true. Yes, you could probably hit the WLTP rating by hypermiling, but if you did the same kind of driving with the Mazda, you would still get more range. You, or I, don't have to prove the above, there are thousands of people currently driving EVs and have given thousands of testimonies and reviews. We know what the reality is regarding EVs vs ICEs. That doesn't make me want an EV any less, but twisting facts is not helping anyone.

Not to mention that the actual reason people have range anxiety is what @dbsb3233 mentioned, not the above. So the whole argument is moot anyway.

Anyway, if you want to ignore all that just for the sake of winning the argument, then you won, I don't care.

 

[SJ_Okay]

everyone knows the above is NOT true in the real world for the typical, "standard" range EV (say the SR MME) compared to the typical ICE (say your Mazda), even for city driving.

Really? Everyone knows that, do they? Or are you perhaps being a touch irascible in your assumptions, and if you’re actually honest you can admit that perhaps only some EV drivers are aware that is not comparable for a typical EV? Which leads me to question why you caveated this claim by applying it to typical “standard” range EVs only, when I was clearly talking talking about EVs with ranges that are comparable to 366 miles? Cherry pick whatever you like to help you prove a point, I stand by my claim that range anxiety in a car that has a comparable range to an ICE vehicle of 366 is bonkers.

You also "backed up" this claim by comparing trip computer estimates (which take into account your actual, personal fuel consumption history) with WLTP rating, which makes absolutely no sense, since they are not comparable at all.

How else would I compare the range of my current ICE to that of my future MME? Please tell me. I really don’t care that you feel they are not comparable... I have made the comparison and hundreds more who are looking into buying an EV will be doing the exact same thing (not everyone shares your superior, albeit crabby intellect on the matter). Since this comparison is pretty much the targeted selling point for an EV manufacturer trying to lure ICE customers, please tell me how you would compare this? Everyday I see Ford sponsored ads on social media touting 370 mile range on a single charge for the MME saying stuff like range anxiety is a thing of the past. The vast majority of people who see these ads, who then notice a comparable range In their ICE when they fill up, will make that exact same comparison... so please, I’m all ears? Additionally the history of my cars fuel consumption does not determine in any way it’s future consumption, even if I drove the identical route everyday. My driving style and journeys will be far more predictable in an EV than in an ICE.

And in the end you're saying "I was only talking about me", which, first of all, was clearly not the case and second of all, is still NOT true. Yes, you could probably hit the WLTP rating by hypermiling, but if you did the same kind of driving with the Mazda, you would still get more range.

You have literally no idea how I drive or use my car. But I do, and I was saying that without adjusting anything about the way I drive, that I believe (note, I believe, not you believe!) I will get more miles out of MME than my Mazda. This is based on my observations of my SUV ICE’s fuel efficiency in and around town and in varying levels of traffic. That is me talking about me and only me! The only time I referenced anyone else was when I spoke about people still having range anxiety. You know, like how you said everyone knows something when clearly not everyone does.

but twisting facts is not helping anyone.

I’ve twisted nothing. I’ve compared information I have available to me, just as many many more are doing.

 

[SnBGC]

I bought my current EV a little over a year ago and back then I was fairly certain I needed over 200 miles of range. However, I decided to buy a car with about 120 miles of range because it was so affordable. It turned out that the 120 miles of range is more than enough for my needs and how I use my vehicle.

I expected the switch to EV would have the net effect of limiting my annual driving distance but it ended up just the opposite. I drove 31,000 EV miles in the past year. Nearly a 50% increase from my ICE mileage from the year before! If anything, having a BEV vehicle is liberating because my car is almost always ready with a full charge every day if not every trip. We decided to make trips that we normally wouldn't have taken because it costs so much less per mile to drive EV compared to ICE.

When I drove my diesel pickup as a daily driver.....I would question every trip to validate the fuel consumption. Do I really need to burn a few gallons of fuel to try out a new restaurant or visit some friends etc? With the EV, that is never a concern.....we just go where we want when we want. It hasn't really ever been an issue.

My MME reservation is for the standard range battery. The extra $5k for more capacity doesnt have much added value for me. I would just be carrying around an extra 25 kWh of battery weight that I will rarely use....if ever.

I will say that driving an EV this past year has taught me some things that I never would have thought about before. For instance.....the MME Select is not an option for me because it doesnt have heated seats. The lack of heated seats in an EV is a deal killer for me. For those of you that haven't owned a BEV before......you will be wise to skip the Select model unless it never drops below 60 degrees where you live.

 

[dbsb3233]

I bought my current EV a little over a year ago and back then I was fairly certain I needed over 200 miles of range. However, I decided to buy a car with about 120 miles of range because it was so affordable. It turned out that the 120 miles of range is more than enough for my needs and how I use my vehicle.

I expected the switch to EV would have the net effect of limiting my annual driving distance but it ended up just the opposite. I drove 31,000 EV miles in the past year. Nearly a 50% increase from my ICE mileage from the year before! If anything, having a BEV vehicle is liberating because my car is almost always ready with a full charge every day if not every trip. We decided to make trips that we normally wouldn't have taken because it costs so much less per mile to drive EV compared to ICE.

When I drove my diesel pickup as a daily driver.....I would question every trip to validate the fuel consumption. Do I really need to burn a few gallons of fuel to try out a new restaurant or visit some friends etc? With the EV, that is never a concern.....we just go where we want when we want. It hasn't really ever been an issue.

My MME reservation is for the standard range battery. The extra $5k for more capacity doesnt have much added value for me. I would just be carrying around an extra 25 kWh of battery weight that I will rarely use....if ever.

I will say that driving an EV this past year has taught me some things that I never would have thought about before. For instance.....the MME Select is not an option for me because it doesnt have heated seats. The lack of heated seats in an EV is a deal killer for me. For those of you that haven't owned a BEV before......you will be wise to skip the Select model unless it never drops below 60 degrees where you live.

That's all very similar to what I'm expecting for my situation too. I think we'll be driving more than normal too, both because it's a cool new vehicle with lots of bells and whistles, and because the fuel is so cheap.

But with one caveat I didn't see you mention -- limiting it to the range from home. Since we'll still also have an ICE vehicle, we'll take that on anything longer. So virtually all my MME charging should be at home.

Curious, how much charging (if any) do you find yourself doing at public charging stations vs at home?

 

[I.Adams]

Hallo and greatings from Germany!
Yes, these are the same points of view I had. Yes, big is beautiful. But mostly unnecessary.

 

[SnBGC]

..........

Curious, how much charging (if any) do you find yourself doing at public charging stations vs at home?

Very little. My commute to my office is about 25 miles each way. However, I do use my vehicle to see clients and view job sites so I also have a Level 2 charger installed at work. So, I keep it plugged in when parked at work and I pretty much have a full charge every time I get behind the wheel.

There are times when I have a heavy travel day due to unexpected situations and I find myself without enough charge to return to the office or to get home. In those cases I would visit a DC fast charge station for 15-20 minutes and I am usually good to make it back to my home or work charger. I have done that about 5 or 6 times during this past year but only 1 or 2 of those were absolutely necessary. The other times were mostly for insurance and piece of mind.

So my situation is somewhat unique to most. That being said, my niece and brother each own the very same vehicle (2017 Ford Focus Electric). They both drive about 22-28 miles each way to their respective jobs. Neither have the ability to charge at their work but they don't drive around during the day either. They both charge almost exclusively at home. I don't think my brother has DC fast charged yet. My niece has fast charged a couple dozen times.....all on weekends during road trips to visit her family who live in a different city about 120 miles away.

One more item to mention.....
When ambient temps exceed 97 degrees fahreneit .....my car asks to be plugged in, even when not charging. This is because the vehicle will run the A/C compressor and circulate battery coolant through the chiller to keep the pack from overheating. It also asks to be plugged in when temps are below 30 degrees so it can run the heater. It is a message on the dash and a message that I get on my cell phone if I have that alert enabled. I presume the MME will make the same requests.

 

[zhackwyatt]

One more item to mention.....
When ambient temps exceed 97 degrees fahreneit .....my car asks to be plugged in, even when not charging. This is because the vehicle will run the A/C compressor and circulate battery coolant through the chiller to keep the pack from overheating. It also asks to be plugged in when temps are below 30 degrees so it can run the heater. It is a message on the dash and a message that I get on my cell phone if I have that alert enabled. I presume the MME will make the same requests.

That's one reason I want the extended range battery. I live in Phoenix and I can't plug-in at work. So I know it's going to be using the battery during the hot summer days (and spring and fall, 103 today) to keep things cool.

 

[SnBGC]

That's one reason I want the extended range battery. I live in Phoenix and I can't plug-in at work. So I know it's going to be using the battery during the hot summer days (and spring and fall, 103 today) to keep things cool.

I dont think the MME will heat or cool the battery while parked unplugged so the expended range battery won't help you at all.

Is this going to be your first EV? You are going to love the A/C here in Phoenix. Works excellent with minimal range penalty. Your range will be MUCH more reduced in the winter when using cabin heat compared to summer with A/C on high. That was another thing that surprised me about these things. Pleasant surprise though...

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