SR Battery or ER Battery

jhalkias

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
2,219
Reaction score
4,226
Location
Ohio
Vehicles
2021 RR ME FE, 2016 Escape, 2019 Fusion Energi
Occupation
Benefit Fund Administrator
Country flag
Depending on what kind of mileage the Mach-e gets at high speeds, anyway. It's interesting that ABRP is currently showing just 2.64 miles/kWh @ 65 MPH for the Mach-e AWD ER. For the whole 780 mile drive that would calculate to 295 kWh used, which is $89 @ $0.30/kWh. 780 miles @ 25 MPG ICE is 31 gallons. $2.87/gal would be the break-even gas price for that. That's in the general range of where the national avg price usually sits. Probably more on the expensive coastal cities though.

I'm hoping the Mach-e does better than 2.64 MPK at 65 MPH. (Although most of the Utah drive is 80 MPH so it could actually fall below 2.5 MPK.)
There’s another problem too though. EA needs to start charging per KWH rather than by the minute. I looked at a road trip, and all the EA chargers were like .89 a minute (I believe that was at the 350 KWH stations). I know there are laws that need to change, but you should be charged for the actual energy, not the time as charging times and peaks vary.





Advertisement

 

Billyk24

Well-Known Member
First Name
William
Joined
Nov 29, 2019
Messages
969
Reaction score
469
Location
PA
Vehicles
Ford C-Max Energi, Premium Mach-E ordered
Country flag
And this is where Tesla's advantage is apparent. Not only does Tesla have faster charging but cheaper as well ($.30/kwh) - it IS cheaper using superchargers than gas. Eventually EA might get cheaper, but only if there is legitimate high current competition OR Ford et al subsidize the charging like Tesla does
During interstate driving with usual speeds, your efficiency will drop as will the range. Since we do not have actual MME owners reporting on such, we can turn to the Tesla forum(s) ( https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/model-3-consumptionrange-75-mph-constant-speed) for such-(model 3 more aero than the higher and heavier MME) :
83 mph 355 Wh/mi
80 mpg 320 Wh/mi
75 mph 305 Wh/mi
70 mpg 280 Wh/mi

65 mph - 232 w/mi
70 mph - 262 w/mi
75 mph - 302 w/mi

60F No heat or A/C @75 mph - ~233 Wh/m
75 °F with A/C @75 mph - ~237 Wh/m
85 °F with A/C @75 mph - ~239 Wh/m
50 °F with Heat @ 75 mph - 262 Wh/m
32 °F with Heat @ 75 mph - 299 Wh/m
23 °F with Heat @ 75 mph - 320 Wh/m

a chart for comparing model S-X-3:
1593357889855.png


The owner reports and figures "vary", In short, your cost to recharge the BEV is likely going to be higher than "official" range/efficiency attached to the BEV.
 

timbop

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
Messages
3,768
Reaction score
7,215
Location
New Jersey
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach-E (CA RT1), 2016 Dodge Durango
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
Depending on what kind of mileage the Mach-e gets at high speeds, anyway. It's interesting that ABRP is currently showing just 2.64 miles/kWh @ 65 MPH for the Mach-e AWD ER. For the whole 780 mile drive that would calculate to 295 kWh used, which is $89 @ $0.30/kWh. 780 miles @ 25 MPG ICE is 31 gallons. $2.87/gal would be the break-even gas price for that. That's in the general range of where the national avg price usually sits. Probably more on the expensive coastal cities though.

I'm hoping the Mach-e does better than 2.64 MPK at 65 MPH. (Although most of the Utah drive is 80 MPH so it could actually fall below 2.5 MPK.)
The worst part is the per-minute charging tiers. The ER MME JUST hits the highest tier (150-350kw), but doesn't maintain that top charging speed for more than a couple of minutes at best. The SR at 115kw is toward the top of the middle tier, so its actually cheaper to do SR vs ER with EA's current pricing model. If they do change to per kwh charging then that will change, unless they retain the idea of pricing tiers based on charge speed.
 

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
7,398
Reaction score
14,278
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
Mach-E FE reserved, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Tacoma
Country flag
There’s another problem too though. EA needs to start charging per KWH rather than by the minute. I looked at a road trip, and all the EA chargers were like .89 a minute (I believe that was at the 350 KWH stations). I know there are laws that need to change, but you should be charged for the actual energy, not the time as charging times and peaks vary.
The good thing is EA already announced they will be making that change. Of course some places may need revised laws.
 

Wildthing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Messages
203
Reaction score
304
Location
Canada
Vehicles
Mach-E Premium SR AWD
Country flag
I still occasionally re-evaluate my plan to proceed with the SR battery instead of paying $5000 extra for the ER. I'd only utilize the extra range on road trips (SR is plenty around home). We take a few trips each year, usually Denver to Vegas (780 miles). Now that EA has a station in Green River UT to fill in that gap and make it more doable, I plugged the route into ABRP to recalculate it.

It's shocking how much more expensive it is than gas. Driving our Escape, and counting only the enroute refuels (to be consistent with ABRP), it's only 2 gas stops. Roughly 21 gallons (~$50). But in an AWD ER Mach-e, ABRP shows 182 minutes of enroute charging. Even at EA's discounted subscription rate, that's somewhere between $91-$127 (not sure if the price is based on the max of the vehicle model or the max that it starts the session with, which varies base on your starting SOC).

Either way though, it's around TWICE as expensive as buying gas for the Escape. Wow. I know it's not huge $$ either way, but it's still discouraging to pay MORE for fuel on road trips instead of less. Which makes it even harder to consider paying the extra $5000 for the ER.

Home charging is completely the opposite, of course. Which is why I'm adding a BEV to my garage for around-home use. But the ER battery just keeps screaming "waste of money!" everytime I evaluate it.
Wow! Here in Quebec the same trip would cost $100+ in gas and about $35 for charging in public station ($11.50/hour)
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
6,143
Reaction score
6,451
Location
Colorado, USA
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach-E FE Red, 2013 Escape Titanium
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
The worst part is the per-minute charging tiers. The ER MME JUST hits the highest tier (150-350kw), but doesn't maintain that top charging speed for more than a couple of minutes at best. The SR at 115kw is toward the top of the middle tier, so its actually cheaper to do SR vs ER with EA's current pricing model. If they do change to per kwh charging then that will change, unless they retain the idea of pricing tiers based on charge speed.
I've heard it said that the EA price tier is set according to the kW draw at the start of the session, although not sure if that's the way it really works or not. If it is though, and if the peak of the charge curve is as short and early as we projected, then most sessions probably start off at below 125 kW. Unless you've run the battery below maybe 20% (or wherever that first tier drops).
 

timbop

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
Messages
3,768
Reaction score
7,215
Location
New Jersey
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach-E (CA RT1), 2016 Dodge Durango
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
I've heard it said that the EA price tier is set according to the kW draw at the start of the session, although not sure if that's the way it really works or not. If it is though, and if the peak of the charge curve is as short and early as we projected, then most sessions probably start off at below 125 kW. Unless you've run the battery below maybe 20% (or wherever that first tier drops).
I suspect it is based on the max charging the car can theoretically take and not the actual peak draw for the session. I came to that conclusion based on the deal that Kia or Hyundai made with EA (can't remember which) in which their 77kw cars would be charged the below 75kw rate
 

Raymondjram

Well-Known Member
First Name
Raymond
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
375
Reaction score
364
Location
Bayamon
Vehicles
2014 Ford Fusion Hybrid LE sedan
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Country flag
Before I get my reservation into an order I had these thoughts about the possibility of changing my Premium SR AWD with the ER option.

It’s always a surprise to read that in North America people won’t buy an EV unless it has a 300 mi/485 km range, when in Europe people are talking more of a 185 mi/300 km. Of course driving a few hours in NA means you are probably not leaving your state or province, but in Europe you might cross a few countries border line, so that might explain this. Will I change my SR for an optional ER? Let’s see.

My daily commute average is around 40 mi/65 km so no, ER is not requested here.

The next most important thing is summer/winter range. Let’s say that in summer the MME will probably gain at least 15% range going from 210 mi/335 km to 240 mi/385 km, in winter it could be losing 35% or more, going from the 210 mi/335 km to 136 mi/219 km. So far so good no ER needed. Also final EPA ratings might be a bit higher. The equivalent WLTP rating is for now 261 mi/420 km.

Now what about road trips? My family visit road trips vary from 150 mi/245 km to 506 mi/815 km., the shortest distance we do regularly, but we always plan a lunch break on route and where we stop they have charging stations. For the other ones, let’s just say that my prostate does not allow me to do more than 2 hours stretch. Using a trip planner like Plugshare helps in viewing charging stops, having a good idea of the charging infrastructure and, yes the MME will have its own trip planner included, but in the meantime Plugshare can show you the charging infrastructure availability on your preferred road trips. I had also checked a vacation one and it’s no problem. No need for ER here.

The gain in range with the ER battery on a Premium AWD would be 60 mi/100 km, but is it worth $7000 dollars in the US or $9000 in Canada, surely not for me, so I will keep my Premium has reserved.

I invite you to watch this Transport Evolved You Tube video, where Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield express her thought about this continues race for more range and bigger batteries.
I agree that most EV owners never need that extra range, just like gas car owner carry excess gasoline all month long. I strongly recommend reviewing your travel plans if you have to drive long distances just for a few times a year. That never justifies getting extra battery.

For those special trips, you save more by renting a hybrid or even a regular gas vehicle. Leave the EV for your daily driving.
 

Raymondjram

Well-Known Member
First Name
Raymond
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
375
Reaction score
364
Location
Bayamon
Vehicles
2014 Ford Fusion Hybrid LE sedan
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Country flag
Which do you think is the bigger issue for potential buyers? The slow charge times or the not being able to charge nearly anywhere? I know it’s a combination, but which do you think is the bigger deterrent?
The answer is the slow charge times because you can get electricity anywhere, even from the Sun for free! This is why a potential EV customer must evaluate their actual needs and lifestyles, including home charging. If the basic EV can fulfill them, then buy one. But if you cannot wait for the charge time or cannot get a fast charger on your trip, then don't buy it. Buy a hybrid instead and get the better of the two worlds. Then either wait until the EV range fulfills your needs, or move closer and drive less with the EV. I moved closer to my job in 1977 and I saved over $4,000 a year in gasoline (and more in other expenses). until 2011 when I retired. Now I drive less than 300 miles a month!
 
OP
ClaudeMach-E

ClaudeMach-E

Well-Known Member
First Name
Claude
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
1,030
Reaction score
787
Location
Quebec Canada
Vehicles
Mustang Mach 3- Tempo- Malibu(3)-Actual Kia Sportage AWD
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #70
For those of you that are still unsure wether to go with a SR or ER battery here's an excellent video by Electric Vehicle Man you might want to watch, just adjust miles figures to your average highway speeds.

 

JamieGeek

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
2,435
Reaction score
4,091
Location
Southeastern Michigan
Website
spareelectrons.wordpress.com
Vehicles
Mach-E, old: Bolt, C-Max Energi, Focus Electric
Country flag
For those of you that are still unsure wether to go with a SR or ER battery here's an excellent video by Electric Vehicle Man you might want to watch, just adjust miles figures to your average highway speeds.

That video is talking about a single trip, however.

There are some advantages to having a bigger battery and just driving it like an ICE (e.g. "fill it up" and then drive it until its about 1/4 "full" then fill it up again--for my use case this is about 10 days of driving for the 300 mile ER Mach-E battery). Fewer overall cycles on the battery being a big one.

In addition to that: If you get the California Route 1 the price hit on the big battery isn't $5k.
 

KAustin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
988
Reaction score
1,266
Location
WDC
Vehicles
Kia Telluride
Country flag
For those of you that are still unsure wether to go with a SR or ER battery here's an excellent video by Electric Vehicle Man you might want to watch, just adjust miles figures to your average highway speeds.

Good video. Thanks for posting. Still sticking with ER though. At faster highway speeds and using A/C & heat, the range will be less. Throw in only charging to 85% - 90% and it drops even more. Everyone's situation is going to be different. My son is going to start school 120 miles away and I would rather not have to recharge for the days he lets us take him to lunch. 😀
 
OP
ClaudeMach-E

ClaudeMach-E

Well-Known Member
First Name
Claude
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
1,030
Reaction score
787
Location
Quebec Canada
Vehicles
Mustang Mach 3- Tempo- Malibu(3)-Actual Kia Sportage AWD
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #73
Yes I agree that it must be to every one's situations and needs. Since I'm a member on this forum I did remark that many people in the US in particular have commutes near or more then 100 miles, so of course the need for an ER is more evident for them.
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
6,143
Reaction score
6,451
Location
Colorado, USA
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach-E FE Red, 2013 Escape Titanium
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Fewer overall cycles on the battery being a big one.
I know there's often talk of battery life in terms of "cycles", but is it really cycles per se, or it is just a way to easily describe the total kWh drained and charged (i.e. 1000 cycles of a 70 kWh battery = 70,000 kWh run through it)?

In other words, for home L1 or L2 charging, is it really better on the battery to add 50 kWh in a single recharge every 5th day, and worse to just add 10 kWh every day? Or is it pretty much the same either way?
 

jhalkias

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
2,219
Reaction score
4,226
Location
Ohio
Vehicles
2021 RR ME FE, 2016 Escape, 2019 Fusion Energi
Occupation
Benefit Fund Administrator
Country flag
If EV charging stations were more prevalent I would get the SR battery and be fine. My fear is that until it is more built out, I want the security of that ER. I posted in another thread we travel often on I 77 S from OH through WV and WV is a charger desert. I’m not sure even with ER that drive will be possible from our home to visit family in VA until more charging infrastructure is added.
 

Advertisement





 


Advertisement
Top