Tesla Slashes Prices

[Mach1E]

$2K price increase for Ford Lightning back in in August 2022.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/09/business/ford-f-150-lightning-price/index.html
$4K price increase in March 2023
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43473797/2023-ford-f-150-lightning-another-price-increase/
Not sure I understand all of the negative comments toward Tesla increasing or lowering prices as this happens all the time in the Automotive industry.

It does, manufacturers typically change incentives monthly.

But it’s the amount (equal to the tax credits) and the timing (right when tax credits appear or go away) that make it philosophically wrong when the GOAL of the government tax credits was to reduce the price of BEVs to the consumer.

ANY manufacturer (Tesla, Ford, etc) who took advantage and raised prices should be scolded.

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[theduke]

It does, manufacturers typically change incentives monthly.

But it’s the amount (equal to the tax credits) and the timing (right when tax credits appear or go away) that make it philosophically wrong when the GOAL of the government tax credits was to reduce the price of BEVs to the consumer.

ANY manufacturer (Tesla, Ford, etc) who took advantage and raised prices should be scolded.

You're flat wrong on this, and here's the cold hard data to prove it:

https://jalopnik.com/buying-a-new-2023-tesla-has-never-been-cheaper-discount-1850139989
https://www.financialsamurai.com/average-new-car-price/

There was a HUGE increase in price on all cars from late 2020 onward, and it tracked with inflation directly.

If anything Tesla has not tracked as steeply as others. The Model 3 continued a downward trajectory, and the Model Y had a brief bump but is now at all time lows.


No, you are viewing everything through your self-admitted hatred for Musk, and won't acknowledge the facts.

 

[EVandSolar]

I posted the link above.

It’s one thing to raise and lower based on market conditions.

It’s completely different to take government money aimed at making BEVs more affordable for consumers, and instantly raising prices to keep that money for yourself.

It’s unethical plain and simple.

Legal? Absolutely. But just plain wrong. And does nothing to help the environment.

Hmm, I'm trying to keep an open mind on the conversation, but I don't think your logic is sound based on the article you linked. Yes, the author made a claim in the thread title, but IMO that doesn't make it true.

The article claims that Tesla raised prices *because of the rebate being offered*. This was in November 2021, a full 13 months before the rebate went into effect, and referenced more price increases that happened even further back in time.

So, how exactly does raising prices more than a year before a rebate goes into effect equate with "Tesla raised prices to negate the tax credit and keep the money for themselves" which seems to be your argument? This makes absolutely zero sense. Your righteous indignation seems misplaced based on the facts. I think none of us are immune to being influenced by our biases....are you sure you are being objective with your thought process here?

The facts definitely do show that Tesla *lowered* prices to make sure consumers would benefit from the tax credits. This is the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

Dropping prices to get below the rebate limit definitely appears to be precisely in order to come in under the cap. I feel that *other* price changes were made independent of the rebate. Such as more than a year before the rebate existed. Demand was higher than supply for a number of reasons, including nearly free financing. Tesla raised prices. This is normal and wise business practice. After getting their vehicle price under the rebate cap this year, Tesla has lowered prices again, more than once. Nothing to do with the rebate, just normal and wise business practice. Production hitting all time record levels while the economy heads towards a recession, interest rate rise, severely affecting affordability and thus demand? Lower prices. They can. They have the margin to do it. And they *met production and delivery estimates* for Q1-2023 by doing so, at the cost of some margin.

Nothing nefarious. I think your apparent extreme disdain for Musk/Tesla is clouding your objective reasoning abilities here.

 

[roamtheworld]

It does, manufacturers typically change incentives monthly.

But it’s the amount (equal to the tax credits) and the timing (right when tax credits appear or go away) that make it philosophically wrong when the GOAL of the government tax credits was to reduce the price of BEVs to the consumer.

ANY manufacturer (Tesla, Ford, etc) who took advantage and raised prices should be scolded.

Last comment for me then I'm tapping out.
The manufactures are actively adjusting prices because of many factors like commodity and supplier prices for battery materials and build out coast to get production ramped up. It's not personal its business. EVs are a new business and it has taken over 10 years for Tesla to make a decent profit and other companies will do what they need to be profitable as well in the coming years.
EVERYONE knew that the Lightning Pro was a STEAL at $39K base when introduced and all the press knew they would loose money on it. No surprise the prices have gone up. If they get things like LFP batteries the prices might come back down in a few years, who knows.
Ford, GM, Toyota, VW, Hyundai, BYD and Tesla all have raised and lowered prices globally to meet certain tax breaks and take advantage of maintaining market share and/or profits.

 

[Mach1E]

Hmm, I'm trying to keep an open mind on the conversation, but I don't think your logic is sound based on the article you linked. Yes, the author made a claim in the thread title, but IMO that doesn't make it true.

The article claims that Tesla raised prices *because of the rebate being offered*. This was in November 2021, a full 13 months before the rebate went into effect, and referenced more price increases that happened even further back in time.

So, how exactly does raising prices more than a year before a rebate goes into effect equate with "Tesla raised prices to negate the tax credit and keep the money for themselves" which seems to be your argument? This makes absolutely zero sense. Your righteous indignation seems misplaced based on the facts. I think none of us are immune to being influenced by our biases....are you sure you are being objective with your thought process here?

The facts definitely do show that Tesla *lowered* prices to make sure consumers would benefit from the tax credits. This is the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

Dropping prices to get below the rebate limit definitely appears to be precisely in order to come in under the cap. I feel that *other* price changes were made independent of the rebate. Such as more than a year before the rebate existed. Demand was higher than supply for a number of reasons, including nearly free financing. Tesla raised prices. This is normal and wise business practice. After getting their vehicle price under the rebate cap this year, Tesla has lowered prices again, more than once. Nothing to do with the rebate, just normal and wise business practice. Production hitting all time record levels while the economy heads towards a recession, interest rate rise, severely affecting affordability and thus demand? Lower prices. They can. They have the margin to do it. And they *met production and delivery estimates* for Q1-2023 by doing so, at the cost of some margin.

Nothing nefarious. I think your apparent extreme disdain for Musk/Tesla is clouding your objective reasoning abilities here.

I think you’re missing an important detail of the timeline.

The 2021 price increase was for the anticipated bill to reinstate the $7500 credit.

That bill ended up failing. 1 senator held out when everyone (Tesla included) was certain it would go through.

 

[Mach1E]

To be clear, I completely understand that I’m judging these actions based on my own personal philosophy.

I understand the “it’s legal, same set of rules, and capitalism” arguments.

I just disagree.

I think it’s wrong to take government money designed to go to consumers and end up being the richest man in America.

I would feel the same way if I found out Elon Musk was on food stamps…….. even if some tax loophole made him eligible.

Some people would see the above and say, “hey, if it’s legal, go for it!” I just disagree.

 

[theduke]

To be clear, I completely understand that I’m judging these actions based on my own personal philosophy.

I understand the “it’s legal, same set of rules, and capitalism” arguments.

I just disagree.

I think it’s wrong to take government money designed to go to consumers and end up being the richest man in America.

I would feel the same way if I found out Elon Musk was on food stamps…….. even if some tax loophole made him eligible.

Some people would see the above and say, “hey, if it’s legal, go for it!” I just disagree.

You do realize that "richest man in America" thing is completely tied to his Tesla stock? He actually has very little cash on hand.

And the last time he sold Tesla stock, to buy Twitter, it tanked the value of that stock by 60%?

I don't like everything he does, not by a stretch, but you are being uneven in your application of rules that he and everyone should follow.


Personally, I hate auto dealers a lot more. At least with Tesla, the pricing is up front and there are no surprised.


EDIT - and again, he DID NOT take money designed to go to consumers. 15 days after the IRA went into effect (Jan 1, 2023), Tesla slashed prices to all-time lows. Factoring in inflation, it's never been cheaper. Ever.

 

[roamtheworld]

To be clear, I completely understand that I’m judging these actions based on my own personal philosophy.

I understand the “it’s legal, same set of rules, and capitalism” arguments.

I just disagree.

I think it’s wrong to take government money designed to go to consumers and end up being the richest man in America.

I would feel the same way if I found out Elon Musk was on food stamps…….. even if some tax loophole made him eligible.

Some people would see the above and say, “hey, if it’s legal, go for it!” I just disagree.

I fibbed not tapping out yet.

I totally understand your point that business can be bad and enrich themselves
.
Back in 2021 Oil companies took COVID funds and then laid off people off anyway.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/02/fossil-fuel-companies-billions-tax-breaks-workers
Lobbying is BIG business for almost every industry for a reason!
Doesn't make it right! I feel world governments are way to influenced by businesses via lobbying.
DONT get me started about the Military complex (too much rabbit hole in this thread already)

 

[EVandSolar]

I think you’re missing an important detail of the timeline.

The 2021 price increase in my highly biased opinion was for the anticipated bill to reinstate the $7500 credit.

That bill ended up failing. 1 senator held out when everyone (Tesla included) was certain it would go through.

Bold is mine.

It seems to me that the price increases were independent of the rebate regardless of how close one of several increases made that year was to the date of the proposed credit. If the price increase was truly only due to the anticipated rebate, where was the price decrease following the failure of the bill? If this didn't happen, then the story doesn't hold water. How do you explain the price increases that occurred even further back than the timeframe just prior to the failed bill timeline? The answer is easy...the price changes occurred due to market conditions independent from the proposed rebate bill that failed. I personally think you are indignant over something that is completely made up and not true at all. The facts of today also 100% dispute the accusations, and instead simply correlate with market conditions. This is my opinion, but actually makes sense based on the facts.

 

[MachKet]

Jim is smelling the smoke
https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-tesla-price-cuts-spark-ev-price-war-2023-4

 

[Mach1E]

Bold is mine.

It seems to me that the price increases were independent of the rebate regardless of how close one of several increases made that year was to the date of the proposed credit. If the rebate was truly only due to the anticipated rebate, where was the price decrease following the failure of the bill? If this didn't happen, then the story doesn't hold water. How do you explain the price increases that occurred even further back than the timeframe just prior to the failed bill timeline? The answer is easy...the price changes occurred due to market conditions independent from the proposed rebate bill that failed. I personally think you are indignant over something that is completely made up and not true at all. The facts of today also 100% dispute the accusations, and instead simply correlate with market conditions. This is my opinion, but actually makes sense based on the facts.

By the way, I personally think the that federal tax rebate being allowed on $55,000 cars, and the limit being raised to $80,000 SUV's to support America's obsession with ridiculously enormous, expensive, wasteful SUV's and pickups is beyond ridiculous.

Make the cap $45,000 on all EV's, and let the market fight to bring pricing in line. Those that choose giant, lumbering, expensive SUV's and trucks don't get the rebate. This bill is supposed to support transitioning to a more economical, less wasteful, sustainable future.

To be clear, it was the opinion of the article (and there were many at the time that agreed). I just agreed with their conclusion. Why? Because the timing was obvious. Just like them dropping pricing immediately when the original 200k vehicle credit went away.

I totally understand if people are ok with it happening. And YES, every manufacturer raised prices due to the credits.

But with all that evidence, I don’t understand how people could say it didn’t happen.

Tesla did move prices with market conditions AS WELL.

But they obviously moved them directly in sync with tax credits. I don’t fault the market moves, just the tax credit moves.

And yeah, I can give an example of Ford doing it too! The huge 2023 MSRP increase. I have zero doubt the increase would be significantly smaller without the tax credits continuing.

 

[Mach1E]

You do realize that "richest man in America" thing is completely tied to his Tesla stock? He actually has very little cash on hand.

And the last time he sold Tesla stock, to buy Twitter, it tanked the value of that stock by 60%?

I don't like everything he does, not by a stretch, but you are being uneven in your application of rules that he and everyone should follow.


Personally, I hate auto dealers a lot more. At least with Tesla, the pricing is up front and there are no surprised.


EDIT - and again, he DID NOT take money designed to go to consumers. 15 days after the IRA went into effect (Jan 1, 2023), Tesla slashed prices to all-time lows. Factoring in inflation, it's never been cheaper. Ever.

Again, I’m not applying the rules unevenly to Tesla and Musk. I’m criticizing all manufacturers who did this.

And yeah, rabbit hole, auto dealers are also on my personal “you did the people wrong these last few years” list. And they have the record profits to show for it.

You keep talking about 2023 and the current price cuts as evidence.

But that’s all YEARS after the things I’m criticizing Tesla for. I’m talking about what was done in 2021 and years prior.

If you’re on trial for kicking a dog in 2021, the fact that you adopted two dogs in 2023 is irrelevant.

 

[4sallypat]

Lots of neighbors and friends have Y and moved over from "normal" cars and they have told me they are comfortable with single screen now. I still like the MachE driver screen a lot.

Exactly - I got used to the Lightning dual screens so going to a Tesla with a single center screen is a bit odd.

If we get a Tesla, I would get the optional center display aftermarket just to keep it the "same" feel.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Jim is smelling the smoke
https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-tesla-price-cuts-spark-ev-price-war-2023-4

yes please. Price cuts across the board. Wish Porsche would feel the pressure. Would love a Taycan for 60k.

 

[theduke]

Again, I’m not applying the rules unevenly to Tesla and Musk. I’m criticizing all manufacturers who did this.

And yeah, rabbit hole, auto dealers are also on my personal “you did the people wrong these last few years” list. And they have the record profits to show for it.

You keep talking about 2023 and the current price cuts as evidence.

But that’s all YEARS after the things I’m criticizing Tesla for. I’m talking about what was done in 2021 and years prior.

If you’re on trial for kicking a dog in 2021, the fact that you adopted two dogs in 2023 is irrelevant.

Again, no. Everyone raised prices in 2021/2022.

Singling out Tesla is inherently biased in that regard. Are you also standing in front of your local Ford dealer yelling at them for their past 20k "market adjustment" on the MME? I have my doubts.

You are somehow trying to convince us that it was wrong for Tesla to adjust prices upward when inflation went up, and make us think that was Tesla grifting people because of the IRA, which had not gone into effect.

Again, I post the image below, which shows not just prices increasing with inflation, but that price accelerating during the time you mention. Average new car prices went from ~$38k in 2020 to $48k by the end of 2022 (25%+ increase). The FACT is that inflation was pushing up prices. As someone previously mentioned, it had nothing to do with the IRA (beyond the fact that the Gov was throwing money at everything - shock that we now have inflation, right?).

As Tesla's costs have continued to drop, they have dropped prices. Most other manufs have been very hesitant to follow suit on that. That, by your own metrics, should make Tesla more trustworthy than everyone else, not less.

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