Tesla Slashes Prices

[EVandSolar]

Doesn’t matter.

We all know, from real world testing, that using this tests inflates the range numbers for Tesla.

They could choose the same test everyone else chose to get more realistic results.

But they continue to choose not to.

You know, I know, and anyone whose seen a real world test knows.

But the average consumer? They get the dishonest EPA results because Tesla chooses to go that route.

It’s a dishonest business practice and unfortunately that’s just how things are done with brand T……… anything to get ahead.

And just as typical are the brand T fanboys, loyal to a fault and will continue to excuse bad behavior no matter what and who it hurts.

317 miles from a MY Performance, or 14 more than Tesla's EPA rated range of 303 miles when driven at a constant 56 mph. Many people do a lot of city driving that would increase range compared to that.

Curious how you will spin things to fit your narrative with some factual data like this? Skip to 19:32 for results.


Here is the M3 going 350 miles driven at 56 mph. I assume/guess that an EPA range test would have some driving faster than this and some slower, i.e. like real life:


So now we have two different Tesla's both achieving their EPA rated range driven at a reasonable speed that would approximate many people's day to day driving other than nonstop high speed interstate driving over long distances(which has nothing to do with EPA rated range).

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[SWO]

Buying a high performance car that advertises a certain amount of power available, and not divulging a catastrophic design flaw that cuts power to that of a Ford Escort after five seconds is nothing short of fraudulent. The 1/4 mile time and trap speed is a clear indication of the horrible engineering flaw. 101 mph trap speed in the quarter mile? Don't minivans do that? LOL. Claiming this isn't a huge issue speaks of blind brand loyalty IMO. Pretty sure there are threads on these forums discussing the absolutely legitimate issue.

Again, I'm responding to a post calling it fraud. I'm not happy about the 5 second limit but that's a different argument.

Folks calling it fraud and talking about class action suits are delusional.

 

[EVandSolar]

Driving unrealistically slow i.e. about 48 mph, Bjorn gets ~400 miles from a M3(skip to about 14:20). My point is, as disingenuous as it would be to say that the M3 gets 400 miles range, even though it will under ideal conditions, then so to is it disingenuous to claim that Tesla is falsely inflating their EPA range estimates because the car won't go that far at 75 mph or whatever it is a few seem to be enraged about.


Should there be different EPA range estimates that yield different results between manufacturers? No. There should be a way to accurately make comparisons between two EV's, especially since range is such a critical factor.

Based on much evidence I've seen, along with my own personal experience, I just don't think the range estimates are false as some seem to think/claim.

I also think people should be aware of what range to expect out of any EV at say 65 or 70 mph, since they may only realistically be able to use 80-90% of *that* range on a road trip. Perhaps this needs to be part of the advertised range estimate for EV's.

 

[SWO]

317 miles from a MY Performance, or 14 more than Tesla's EPA rated range of 303 miles when driven at a constant 56 mph. Many people do a lot of city driving that would increase range compared to that.

Curious how you will spin things to fit your narrative with some factual data like this? Skip to 19:32 for results.


Here is the M3 going 350 miles driven at 56 mph. I assume/guess that an EPA range test would have some driving faster than this and some slower, i.e. like real life:


So now we have two different Tesla's both achieving their EPA rated range driven at a reasonable speed that would approximate many people's day to day driving other than nonstop high speed interstate driving over long distances(which has nothing to do with EPA rated range).

If the EPA test was "Drive at 56mph until the battery dies" you might have a point.
That test is pointless. Nobody in the US drives 56mph for over 6 hours.

 

[EVandSolar]

If the EPA test was "Drive at 56mph until the battery dies" you might have a point.
That test is pointless. Nobody in the US drives 56mph for over 6 hours.

You are correct, many drive much slower for part/much/all of their driving.
Literally every person in the country that does not drive on the interstate on a day to day basis, drives under these conditions. Not everyone has hour long commutes on the interstate daily. N=1 example. Wife and I both have a 60 mile round trip commute; half on a 55 mph road, half city. I expect to exceed the EPA rated range in both our Kia Niro EV and our Tesla M3 during warm weather. Average 4 miles/kWh(250 Wh/mile) over the winter since December over 6,000 miles. In our current warmer weather I'm averaging 230Wh/mile or ~4.35miles/kWh.....4.35*76kW usable pack=330 miles range= Tesla EPA rated range for my car.

If I drove 75-85 mph for the majority of my driving, OBVIOUSLY my range would be much lower, as expected.

I think the Kia is 3.6 lifetime over 18,000 miles which includes A LOT of cold winter interstate driving. 3.6*64=230 miles. EPA range= 239 miles. We can exceed that in the summer with our normal driving, and get MUCH less than that on the interstate in the mountains when its snowing.

Again, and I'd like to make this clear, I do agree 100% that there should be a way to accurately compare EV's in terms of their range. At this point, it's all over the map. I don't think Tesla's rated range is *wrong*, even if not all manufacturers match exactly.

 

[SWO]

You are correct, many drive much slower for part/much/all of their driving.
Literally every person in the country that does not drive on the interstate on a day to day basis, drives under these conditions. Not everyone has hour long commutes on the interstate daily. N=1 example. Wife and I both have a 60 mile round trip commute; half on a 55 mph road, half city. I expect to exceed the EPA rated range in both our Kia Niro EV and our Tesla M3 during warm weather. Average 4 miles/kWh(250 Wh/mile) over the winter since December over 6,000 miles.

The "test" is completely irrelevant to all the start-stop scenarios you describe (cold soak, phantom drain, hvac, etc.).

That's great you're getting that range in your M3. Basically every objective test by the media shows a different story.

 

[Mach1E]

Dishonest? I don't agree. They were given a choice, they made it. YOU may not like it, but it wasn't illegal and I don't think it's dishonest. If it was flat out fraudulent, we should have seen some kind of lawsuit/settlement by now, like this one:
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/settlement-ford-caught-cheating-f-series-mileage-payload-ratings/

According to Wikipedia, in the past some manufs have even resorted to the following to get higher ratings:
" It is alleged that, similarly than in the NEDC, some automakers overinflate tyres, adjusting or disconnecting brakes to reduce friction, and taping cracks between body panels and windows to reduce air resistance, some go as far as removing wing mirrors, to inflate measured fuel economy and lower measured carbon emission."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTP-75

We are just going back to the point I made earlier- we don’t agree on the morality of the subject.

You keep defending it on the basis that it’s “legal.”

I don’t think legal and moral are the same thing.

Could you at least admit that it would be BETTER for the consumer if they used the more accurate test?

 

[EVandSolar]

The "test" is completely irrelevant to all the start-stop scenarios you describe (cold soak, phantom drain, hvac, etc.).

That's great you're getting that range in your M3. Basically every objective test by the media shows a different story.

What would be your personally acceptable definition of acceptable range vs EPA range for Tesla? For example, do you think that all Tesla's should get their EPA rate range when driven at 60 mph? 70 mph? 80 mph? Under what driving conditions other than the EPA test cycle should Tesla be able to achieve their EPA rated range, in your opinion? Just curious.

 

[SWO]

What would be your personally acceptable definition of acceptable range vs EPA range for Tesla? For example, do you think that all Tesla's should get their EPA rate range when driven at 60 mph? 70 mph? 80 mph? Under what driving conditions other than the EPA test cycle should Tesla be able to achieve their EPA rated range, in your opinion? Just curious.

Whatever the result would be from the EPA cycle basically every other manufacturer but tesla uses......

 

[Mach1E]

317 miles from a MY Performance, or 14 more than Tesla's EPA rated range of 303 miles when driven at a constant 56 mph. Many people do a lot of city driving that would increase range compared to that.

Curious how you will spin things to fit your narrative with some factual data like this? Skip to 19:32 for results.


Here is the M3 going 350 miles driven at 56 mph. I assume/guess that an EPA range test would have some driving faster than this and some slower, i.e. like real life:


So now we have two different Tesla's both achieving their EPA rated range driven at a reasonable speed that would approximate many people's day to day driving other than nonstop high speed interstate driving over long distances(which has nothing to do with EPA rated range).

Huh?

This has literally nothing to do with what we are talking about.

A Mach E driven at 56 mph could do that too. ICE cars could beat the EPA numbers at 56 mph too!

The point is they’re choosing to use the less accurate test for real world driving when the competitors use a more realistic one.

It purposefully TRICKS consumers into thinking the Model Y has significantly more range than the Mach E for example.

How do we know that consumers are tricked? People bring up the EPA range all the time here. They also bring it up on every review and comparison.

The only time people figure out the truth is either through 3rd party independent testing or after they buy the car.

 

[Mach1E]

Again, and I'd like to make this clear, I do agree 100% that there should be a way to accurately compare EV's in terms of their range.

This we absolutely agree on.

And there IS a way to accurately compare them………. If Tesla will use the same testing method as everyone else!

I know why they don’t…….. it helps sell more Teslas and raises the stock price, at the expense of the consumer.

Range is definitely a deciding factor for many buyers.

Some blame goes to the EPA. They should have a single test and give us 4 range numbers - highway warm and cold, city warm and cold.

But since they don’t, everyone should use the same test.

 

[EVandSolar]

Huh?

This has literally nothing to do with what we are talking about.

A Mach E driven at 56 mph could do that too.

The point is they’re choosing to use the less accurate test for real world driving when the competitors use a more realistic one.

It purposefully TRICKS consumers into thinking the Model Y has significantly more range than the Mach E for example.

How do we know that consumers are tricked? People bring up the EPA range all the time here. They also bring it up on every review and comparison.

The only time people figure out the truth is either through 3rd party independent testing or after they buy the car.

If people drive around 56 mph average, how is the test not accurate? Your stance is that Tesla should base their estimated mileage only for people that drive much faster than the EPA test cycle. Why should the range only be reflective of those who have the most inefficient use cases? Inside EV's puts Tesla's range generally around 12% below their EPA rating when driven at a nonstop 70 mph speed. For driving that much faster only on the interstate, this seems reasonable. Are you suggesting that Tesla should only advertise range based on how far they can go while driving 70 mph at all times, and never any slower? That seems silly.

 

[Mach1E]

If people drive around 56 mph average, how is the test not accurate? Your stance is that Tesla should base their estimated mileage only for people that drive much faster than the EPA test cycle. Why should the range only be reflective of those who have the most inefficient use cases? Inside EV's puts Tesla's range generally around 12% below their EPA rating when driven at a nonstop 70 mph speed. For driving that much faster only on the interstate, this seems reasonable. Are you suggesting that Tesla should only advertise range based on how far they can go while driving 70 mph at all times, and never any slower? That seems silly.

Not the point I’m making.

ICE vehicles could beat the EPA estimates at 56 mph too.

No one is claiming that you can’t drive at a low speed and beat the number.

We are just pointing out that Tesla is choosing the test that makes people think they have more range than the competitors…….. when they don’t.

I’m not saying Tesla should make up a new test (70 mph for example).

They should just use the SAME test that everyone else uses so that consumers can make an informed comparison.

 

[EVandSolar]

Hmm, I just reviewed the EPA 5 test cycle. So, people are upset that Tesla includes three additional test cycles:

Directly from the EPA web page:

1: High Speed: Represents city and highway driving at higher speeds with more aggressive acceleration and braking.
2: Air Conditioning: Account for air conditioning use under hot outside conditions (95°F sun load).
3: Cold Temperature:Tests the effects of colder outside temperatures on cold-start driving in stop-and-go traffic.

All three of these test cycles place a higher demand than the other two test cycles. This is what you guys are all butt hurt about? Really? That Tesla is using test cycles that more accurately represents real world driving conditions? What am I missing? Do any of you actually have any clue what you are actually talking about? It really doesn't seem like it.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

All the “independent” tests also don’t represent real world driving either. It’s basically drive constant at x mph and record range.

since x mph is usually hwy speed, you can argue that Tesla’s numbers are more accurate when accounting for city driving as city driving is much more efficient.

perhaps all OEM should use the 5 cycle EPA test. There must be a reason why they’re not. I don’t buy that it’s because they want to under promise and over deliver. VW and Chrysler have already shown that they’re willing to cheat EPA testing.

Europe has one test standard. How do Tesla do compare to other OEMs On that standard?

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