Tesla Slashes Prices

[Mach1E]

All the “independent” tests also don’t represent real world driving either. It’s basically drive constant at x mph and record range.

Europe has one test standard. How do Tesla do compare to other OEMs On that standard?

Excellent point!

The Mach E ER AWD has more range than the model Y LR in Europe testing 440 km vs 435 km. And they do way more scenarios like I wish we would hear. Warm, cold, City and Hwy.

https://ev-database.org/car/1619/Tesla-Model-Y-Long-Range-Dual-Motor

https://ev-database.org/car/1671/Ford-Mustang-Mach-E-ER-AWD

mic drop

Sponsored

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Excellent point!

The Mach E ER AWD has more range than the model Y LR in Europe testing 440 km vs 435 km. And they do way more scenarios like I wish we would hear. Warm, cold, City and Hwy.

https://ev-database.org/car/1619/Tesla-Model-Y-Long-Range-Dual-Motor

https://ev-database.org/car/1671/Ford-Mustang-Mach-E-ER-AWD

mic drop

Makes sense And goes along with independent tests. Now EPA just needs to get rid on one test.

 

[EVandSolar]

Excellent point!

The Mach E ER AWD has more range than the model Y LR in Europe testing 440 km vs 435 km. And they do way more scenarios like I wish we would hear. Warm, cold, City and Hwy.

https://ev-database.org/car/1619/Tesla-Model-Y-Long-Range-Dual-Motor

https://ev-database.org/car/1671/Ford-Mustang-Mach-E-ER-AWD

Actually, since EV range varies so much based on temperature and speed(more than ICE cars?), I agree that a *different* protocol should be used. I really like your idea about warm, cold, city, highway for a total of four ranges.

Such as:
City @32F
City @70F
Highway @32F
Highway @70F

I'm not sure the EPA's test cycles that manufacturers are required to use make much sense. Their highway test cycle specifies an average speed of 48 mph. How is that highway?

 

[EVandSolar]

Excellent point!

The Mach E ER AWD has more range than the model Y LR in Europe testing 440 km vs 435 km. And they do way more scenarios like I wish we would hear. Warm, cold, City and Hwy.

https://ev-database.org/car/1619/Tesla-Model-Y-Long-Range-Dual-Motor

https://ev-database.org/car/1671/Ford-Mustang-Mach-E-ER-AWD

mic drop

I was actually hoping this was a good, factual, credible source. Maybe it is. At first glance, I do have a bit of a concern. Almost all the data they list for range and efficiency under every test condition given has an asterisk beside it. The entire page is littered with asterisks. It took me a bit to scroll past all the asterisks to find what the asterisk means. Here is what I found, and I quote:

" * = estimated value "

Does this mean they didn't actually test anything? If that's the case, I'm not sure this is any kind of official data to base anything on.

 

[Mach1E]

I was actually hoping this was a good, factual, credible source. Maybe it is. At first glance, I do have a bit of a concern. Almost all the data they list for range and efficiency under every test condition given has an asterisk beside it. The entire page is littered with asterisks. It took me a bit to scroll past all the asterisks to find what the asterisk means. Here is what I found, and I quote:

" * = estimated value "

Does this mean they didn't actually test anything? If that's the case, I'm not sure this is any kind of official data to base anything on.

Honestly no clue. It was the first page that came up when I searched “Model Y europe range km”

But when looking at US range values they call it EPA “estimated range.”

So I don’t think there’s anything to read into about the word “estimated.”

Seems like way too detailed data to be made up. But it is the internet. Maybe someone from Europe can chime in.

Looks like europe uses “WLTP range.” And when searching that, multiple sites have the Mach E higher than the Model Y:
https://www.myevreview.com/comparison-chart/range#ford-mustang-mach-e-extended-range-rwd

Testing values explained-
https://www.lifewire.com/ev-ranges-explained-5202261

 

[EVandSolar]

Honestly no clue. It was the first page that came up when I searched “Model Y europe range km”

But when looking at US range values they call it EPA “estimated range.”

So I don’t think there’s anything to read into about the word “estimated.”

Seems like way too detailed data to be made up. But it is the internet. Maybe someone from Europe can chime in.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the M3 LR. There were no asterisks on any of the data, implying actual numbers rather than estimates. Mild weather average range is 350 miles which is quite close to Tesla's published numbers. For the Model Y, they have average range(city highway combined) in mild weather at 316 miles. A little short of Tesla's 330. Again, I'd like to see more info on whether these are actual test results or just estimates and if so, based on what? I'm having trouble finding any info on how, when, and where they are *actually* testing or where they are getting their data from.

 

[Mach1E]

Out of curiosity, I looked at the M3 LR. There were no asterisks on any of the data, implying actual numbers rather than estimates. Mild weather average range is 350 miles which is quite close to Tesla's published numbers. For the Model Y, they have average range(city highway combined) in mild weather at 316 miles. A little short of Tesla's 330. Again, I'd like to see more info on whether these are actual test results or just estimates and if so, based on what? I'm having trouble finding any info on how, when, and where they are *actually* testing or where they are getting their data from.

I edited the post above and it explains it.

Bottom line- Mach E has more range with the European testing models.

 

[theduke]

Honestly no clue. It was the first page that came up when I searched “Model Y europe range km”

But when looking at US range values they call it EPA “estimated range.”

So I don’t think there’s anything to read into about the word “estimated.”

Seems like way too detailed data to be made up. But it is the internet. Maybe someone from Europe can chime in.

Looks like europe uses “WLTP range.” And when searching that, multiple sites have the Mach E higher than the Model Y:
https://www.myevreview.com/comparison-chart/range#ford-mustang-mach-e-extended-range-rwd

Testing values explained-
https://www.lifewire.com/ev-ranges-explained-5202261

WLTP is notoriously an underestimate for US-based driving, worse than EPA, FYI. It uses far lower speeds for testing than the EPA, hence why all EVs have much higher "ranges" than they would on EPA testing. General consensus is in the US on highways, you will get ~2/3 of whatever the WLTP rated range is.

Probably the best testing I have ever see is Bjorn. He takes every EV and does 1000km in them, and reports a crazy ton amount of data on each one, which he openly shares here:


Source:
(first reply to OP).

 

[Mach1E]

WLTP is notoriously an underestimate for US-based driving, worse than EPA, FYI. It uses far lower speeds for testing than the EPA, hence why all EVs have much higher "ranges" than they would on EPA testing. General consensus is in the US on highways, you will get ~2/3 of whatever the WLTP rated range is.

Probably the best testing I have ever see is Bjorn. He takes every EV and does 1000km in them, and reports a crazy ton amount of data on each one, which he openly shares here:


Source:
(first reply to OP).

The point isn’t how accurate the tests are for YOUR driving. None of the standardized tests will be, unless you drive the same as they do in the test.

The point was that when you use the SAME test, it allows consumers to make an informed decision when comparing different brands and models.

And again, Tesla chooses to use a different test cycle that makes them look like they have more range than the competitors, when they actually don’t.

 

[theduke]

The point isn’t how accurate the tests are for YOUR driving. None of the standardized tests will be, unless you drive the same as they do in the test.

The point was that when you use the SAME test, it allows consumers to make an informed decision when comparing different brands and models.

And again, Tesla chooses to use a different test cycle that makes them look like they have more range than the competitors, when they actually don’t.

I wasn't re-hashing our argument.

I was providing more information on WLTP, and giving a 3rd party dataset which is probably better than all of them (none of the "standards" test a car for more than a few miles, Bjorn is doing a 1000km drive, the same drive and documenting conditions, temps, etc., for EVERY car).

 

[EVandSolar]

I was reading an article on InsideEv's regarding their testing of one of the Mustang Mach-E models. According to them, the Mustang achieved more ranged in the EPA range test than what Ford chose to publish as their EPA range, which manufacturers apparently have the option of doing. It makes me wonder that even if Tesla used the less demanding 2 cycle test that others use, if they still wouldn't end up achieving the same or possibly even higher range than what they are currently reporting. Perhaps the difference we are seeing is due to some manufacturers choosing to lower the range they are actually getting in the EPA test in order to provide a more conservative range estimate.

This sort of defeats the chance of arriving at a single, accurate way of testing and reporting range if manufacturers then just adjust things down as much as they want. If Ford(or whoever) shaves 30 miles off the range they achieve, and Tesla(or whoever) uses the actual data, there is no way to get an accurate comparison based on window sticker. Also disputes the idea that Tesla is intentionally using testing that "boosts" their range compared to others.....the 5 test cycle is literally designed to be more difficult than using only the 2 cycle test.

 

[Mach1E]

I was reading an article on InsideEv's regarding their testing of one of the Mustang Mach-E models. According to them, the Mustang achieved more ranged in the EPA range test than what Ford chose to publish as their EPA range, which manufacturers apparently have the option of doing. It makes me wonder that even if Tesla used the less demanding 2 cycle test that others use, if they still wouldn't end up achieving the same or possibly even higher range than what they are currently reporting. Perhaps the difference we are seeing is due to some manufacturers choosing to lower the range they are actually getting in the EPA test in order to provide a more conservative range estimate.

This sort of defeats the chance of arriving at a single, accurate way of testing and reporting range if manufacturers then just adjust things down as much as they want. If Ford(or whoever) shaves 30 miles off the range they achieve, and Tesla(or whoever) uses the actual data, there is no way to get an accurate comparison based on window sticker. Also disputes the idea that Tesla is intentionally using testing that "boosts" their range compared to others.....the 5 test cycle is literally designed to be more difficult than using only the 2 cycle test.

Except that this isn’t the result.

The 5 cycle test results in higher range for Tesla.

When the model Y and Mach E are tested under the same conditions, the Mach E comes slightly ahead.

The ONLY place the Y ends up ahead is when they use the 5 cycle test and compare it to the 2 cycle Mach E test.

Only logical conclusion? The 5 cycle test actually isn’t more demanding for electric cars.

This article explains It better:
https://insideevs.com/news/586646/how-tesla-wins-on-epa-estimated-range/amp/

“In summary, Dykes shares that "Low speed efficiency and a willingness to run extra test cycles," allows Tesla to get better results than its rivals. Essentially, he says Tesla works to "use the rules to the utmost advantage." “

“
When many automakers run the two cycles, they get the EPA range number for the car's window sticker based on 55 percent city driving and 45 percent highway driving. The blended calculation is then reduced by 30 percent for the sticker. Some automakers even reduce the range figure further for the window sticker to make it even more applicable to real-world driving.

Tesla runs all five cycles, makes its calculations, and then the number could be reduced by just 23 or 24 percent for the window sticker. The additional tests include a high-speed test, an air conditioning test loop, and a cold test cycle. All of these extra tests cover a short distance and have low average speeds.

Not only does Tesla benefit from the smaller reduction, but also, some of the additional tests favor Tesla's high efficiency at lower average speeds. The heat pump in Tesla's cars also helps with the cold test cycle.”

 

[theduke]

Except that this isn’t the result.

The 5 cycle test results in higher range for Tesla.

When the model Y and Mach E are tested under the same conditions, the Mach E comes slightly ahead.

The ONLY place the Y ends up ahead is when they use the 5 cycle test and compare it to the 2 cycle Mach E test.

Only logical conclusion? The 5 cycle test actually isn’t more demanding for electric cars.

This article explains It better:
https://insideevs.com/news/586646/how-tesla-wins-on-epa-estimated-range/amp/

“In summary, Dykes shares that "Low speed efficiency and a willingness to run extra test cycles," allows Tesla to get better results than its rivals. Essentially, he says Tesla works to "use the rules to the utmost advantage." “

“
When many automakers run the two cycles, they get the EPA range number for the car's window sticker based on 55 percent city driving and 45 percent highway driving. The blended calculation is then reduced by 30 percent for the sticker. Some automakers even reduce the range figure further for the window sticker to make it even more applicable to real-world driving.

Tesla runs all five cycles, makes its calculations, and then the number could be reduced by just 23 or 24 percent for the window sticker. The additional tests include a high-speed test, an air conditioning test loop, and a cold test cycle. All of these extra tests cover a short distance and have low average speeds.

Not only does Tesla benefit from the smaller reduction, but also, some of the additional tests favor Tesla's high efficiency at lower average speeds. The heat pump in Tesla's cars also helps with the cold test cycle.”

Actually, this assumption above is not entirely correct.

A manuf can opt to remove mileage (but not add it) after they run either the 2 or 5 cycle test. They can opt to be more conservative in their rating than what either test results from. The Porsche Taycan is the classic example of this.

Yes, Tesla has built a car that if you are doing slower (city) driving is far FAR more efficient, but they reported their cars FIRST. They reported their results when literally there was NO COMPETITION to speak of. They didn't CHEAT (ahem - Ford and the heavy duty trucks, or VW and dieselgate), they ran the tests fairly. You just don't like that they haven't opted to switch over to the 2 cycle, or maybe you don't like that there isn't a universal test. But timing matters - there effectively was no one to compare to when the cars were released.

And the claim that all other EV makers use the 2-cycle test, I have now found out, is false.

The Lucid Air uses the 5-cycle test for their reporting, and there are some reports that the Chevy Bolt uses the 5-cycle test, although there is some debate over this one.

 

[Mach1E]

Actually, this assumption above is not entirely correct.

A manuf can opt to remove mileage (but not add it) after they run either the 2 or 5 cycle test. They can opt to be more conservative in their rating than what either test results from. The Porsche Taycan is the classic example of this.

Yes, Tesla has built a car that if you are doing slower (city) driving is far FAR more efficient, but they reported their cars FIRST. They reported their results when literally there was NO COMPETITION to speak of. They didn't CHEAT (ahem - Ford and the heavy duty trucks, or VW and dieselgate), they ran the tests fairly. You just don't like that they haven't opted to switch over to the 2 cycle, or maybe you don't like that there isn't a universal test. But timing matters - there effectively was no one to compare to when the cars were released.

And the claim that all other EV makers use the 2-cycle test, I have now found out, is false.

The Lucid Air uses the 5-cycle test for their reporting, and there are some reports that the Chevy Bolt uses the 5-cycle test, although there is some debate over this one.

Being first had some validity years ago.

But now that we know that other manufacturers use the more conservative test, continuing to use the 5 cycle doesn’t make for a fair honest comparison.

And even though they were (close to) first. It just shows that even years ago they were doing things to pad the numbers. Definitely not in the consumers best interest.

 

[theduke]

Being first had some validity years ago.

But now that we know that other manufacturers use the more conservative test, continuing to use the 5 cycle doesn’t make for a fair honest comparison.

And even though they were (close to) first. It just shows that even years ago they were doing things to pad the numbers. Definitely not in the consumers best interest.

Meh. I view it more along the MPG range that ICE cars show. I've never in my life gotten the EPA MPG on a car I owned. Not once. Always something I've taken with a grain of salt, and noted that my variance on some cars was a little off, while on others it was a lot off.

Sponsored