What kw fast charging should I expect?

[bbulkow]

I would suggest you visit one of the several EA locations near you, after verifying which chargers at a location have been giving people good charges, and you will discover the peak you will get, which should be over 150kW for a short period, then settling in the 110kW range, and over time throttling down to 90s, etc.

It would seem peculiar for each and every driver to have to discover via trial and error the same core functionality. We don't ask every driver to rent time on a quarter mile track to learn the quarter mile speed of a car.

But thank you for your thought. I have also believed the broad middle should be 110kW, but I haven't seen anything over 70 yet.

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[bbulkow]

Your experience was very likely a charger limitation. 160-163kw peak is the norm for me on a 350kw charger:

Thanks. I think I have to wait till I get low again and try at one of the 350kw's around here.

I see you have a GT. Are these known to charge faster than a regular extended, or are they exactly the same?

 

[Maquis]

Thanks. I think I have to wait till I get low again and try at one of the 350kw's around here.

I see you have a GT. Are these known to charge faster than a regular extended, or are they exactly the same?

I’ve seen 160+ on my Premium. But not since last summer. Cold is a killer.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

Seriously!

I know the fast charging rate depends on temperature, current state of charge, extended range vs standard, and to a different extent battery wear and capped by charger power.

But we can simplify:
+ 20pct to 70pct SOC (the broad middle)
+ new battery packs
+ 60 to 70 degrees F (room temp?)
+ assume not preconditioned until ford makes it easier
+ current software (4.2.x)
+ one answer each for er and regular

That should constrain the problem space to allow answers.

What kw charging should I expect in an average day?

I ask because I was at a fast charger yesterday, starting at 25pct SOC, and was getting 70. ER battery. The charger was supposed to be 100kw. According to some curves, I thought I should be capable of 110kw, so might have expected 90kw with loss. There is a big difference between 110, 90, 70... should I try a different charger? Take my car in for service? Or should I expect this rate and be happy it isnt 40? I had no idea... still have no idea... and have read a lot of posts and curves.

If I ever take a road trip, i will want to know what to plan for.

TIA!

Well, yesterday I took my wife’s 4X to our recently upgraded EA station (all 350kw) just to see if it was any better than the old 150s. Starting SOC was 28% and temp was 60F. I stopped at 50% after 9 minutes.

Plus, there was this one fool that didn’t belong ?

 

[BigMach-E]

I’ve not yet seen 100+ kw peak on my GTPE, recently, my software is completely up to date. Best I’ve seen is 72 peak. 150, 200, 350, doesn’t seem to make much of a difference. True, it’s 40-50 degrees, but my charge curve is garbage.

 

[SWO]

I’ve seen 160+ on my Premium. But not since last summer. Cold is a killer.

The preconditioning is a game changer. I got 158+ consistently on a highway trip with temps in the low 40s/high 30s and rain.

 

[bbulkow]

I’ve not yet seen 100+ kw peak on my GTPE, recently, my software is completely up to date. Best I’ve seen is 72 peak. 150, 200, 350, doesn’t seem to make much of a difference. True, it’s 40-50 degrees, but my charge curve is garbage.

sounds like me.

includes on 350kw chargers?

i wonder if there could be something wrong with our cars?

 

[bbulkow]

Well, yesterday I took my wife’s 4X to our recently upgraded EA station (all 350kw) just to see if it was any better than the old 150s. Starting SOC was 28% and temp was 60F. I stopped at 50% after 9 minutes.

Plus, there was this one fool that didn’t belong ?

That 164kw is juicy, dropping to about 110kw.

Did you precondition?

 

[BigMach-E]

sounds like me.

includes on 350kw chargers?

i wonder if there could be something wrong with our cars?

Yeah, just did a charge on a 350kw, got 72 kw peak, ambient temp 52 degrees. Was around 14 percent rolling in.
I mean, it charges 2 times as fast as a Bolt, but I think there is something wrong with my car. 21 GTPE.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

That 164kw is juicy, dropping to about 110kw.

Did you precondition?

I did not. Drove straight from the garage at home, about a 6 minute drive.

 

[bbulkow]

Mystery "solved"

Using CarScanner, I found a few interesting facts.
TL;DR: whoever said "it depends the type of charger", gets a cookie.

Ford, if you're listening, having a page in the car charger screen stating the volts and amps the charger supplies, and the volts and amps the car accepts, would be crucial to casting blame correctly. Or even have the maximum kw the car is willing to accept (at 350v which seems the nominal voltage), given temp, SOC, and battery health.

EVGo and ElectrifyAmerica have the most fast (> 50kw) DC chargers in my part of the woods. ChargePoint is mostly L2 and some 50's. Shell is rare generally.

The EA chargers are pretty busy, and generally have a smaller number of chargers per site in my flight paths (I see some bigger ones on their map). EA chargers seem to come in 150kw and 350kw flavors.

Crucially, the EA 150kw chargers support up to 400A and 455V. My mache seems to like only up to 350Vish (measured at the car). 375A * 350V = 140kw, and I got 141kw, so the car was actually maxed out. Interestingly, even though I got preconditioning, the car decided to run the battery heater (6kw going to the heater) during charging at a reasonable temp (about 55F ambient).

I did not test a 350kw EA. There are a set of them about 3 miles from me, but in the app, they've all been derated to 150kw last week. I'd have to drive another 10 miles the other direction to hit a 350kw EA. Given my experience with the 150kw, I bet they do the job.

The 200kw EVGos, though, turned out to be a disappointment. The chargers are limited to 200A but support 950V, but the EA (and few cars) support that kind of voltage. 200A * 350V = 70kw, which is exactly what I got out of two different physical chargers.

Interestingly, the stickers on the on the 200kw EVGos were listed as 50kw. That was also not true, since I was charging at 70kw, and a car capable of 800V would have gotten a healthy 140kw. Jeepers.

I found a 350kw EVGo, but a Rivian got there first. The second EVGo was "out of service", that is, it was out of service in the app but was willing do dispense power at 35kw. Cudos for keeping the charger available for the desperate, but curses for suckering in someone who would have used the 100kw. The charger itself should state "reduced charging capacity right now, waiting for repairs", instead of having to look in the app.

Thus, for our mach-e's,

50kw rated, no matter what: 45kw real limited by charger amps
200kw "tall" EVGo: 70kw limited by charger amps
150kw "tall" EA: 140kw measured, right at the balance of limited by car, and limited by charger
350kw EA & EVGo: likely limited by car? Sample size small so far....

Geeze, we're still in serious early adopter area. Would not want to explain this over the phone to my mom.

Finally, CarScanner had a TON of stats its willing to provide, and figuring out the different ones takes some thinking. For example, when watching the car heat the battery, the kw going to heat is interesting, the inlet temp is interesting, but the battery temp is the critical item. I saw precondition *not* happening when destined from one rapid charge to the other probably because the battery was already at temp. Fascinating.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Mystery "solved"

Using CarScanner, I found a few interesting facts.
TL;DR: whoever said "it depends the type of charger", gets a cookie.

Ford, if you're listening, having a page in the car charger screen stating the volts and amps the charger supplies, and the volts and amps the car accepts, would be crucial to casting blame correctly. Or even have the maximum kw the car is willing to accept (at 350v which seems the nominal voltage), given temp, SOC, and battery health.

EVGo and ElectrifyAmerica have the most fast (> 50kw) DC chargers in my part of the woods. ChargePoint is mostly L2 and some 50's. Shell is rare generally.

The EA chargers are pretty busy, and generally have a smaller number of chargers per site in my flight paths (I see some bigger ones on their map). EA chargers seem to come in 150kw and 350kw flavors.

Crucially, the EA 150kw chargers support up to 400A and 455V. My mache seems to like only up to 350Vish (measured at the car). 375A * 350V = 140kw, and I got 141kw, so the car was actually maxed out. Interestingly, even though I got preconditioning, the car decided to run the battery heater (6kw going to the heater) during charging at a reasonable temp (about 55F ambient).

I did not test a 350kw EA. There are a set of them about 3 miles from me, but in the app, they've all been derated to 150kw last week. I'd have to drive another 10 miles the other direction to hit a 350kw EA. Given my experience with the 150kw, I bet they do the job.

The 200kw EVGos, though, turned out to be a disappointment. The chargers are limited to 200A but support 950V, but the EA (and few cars) support that kind of voltage. 200A * 350V = 70kw, which is exactly what I got out of two different physical chargers.

Interestingly, the stickers on the on the 200kw EVGos were listed as 50kw. That was also not true, since I was charging at 70kw, and a car capable of 800V would have gotten a healthy 140kw. Jeepers.

I found a 350kw EVGo, but a Rivian got there first. The second EVGo was "out of service", that is, it was out of service in the app but was willing do dispense power at 35kw. Cudos for keeping the charger available for the desperate, but curses for suckering in someone who would have used the 100kw. The charger itself should state "reduced charging capacity right now, waiting for repairs", instead of having to look in the app.

Thus, for our mach-e's,

50kw rated, no matter what: 45kw real limited by charger amps
200kw "tall" EVGo: 70kw limited by charger amps
150kw "tall" EA: 140kw measured, right at the balance of limited by car, and limited by charger
350kw EA & EVGo: likely limited by car? Sample size small so far....

Geeze, we're still in serious early adopter area. Would not want to explain this over the phone to my mom.

Finally, CarScanner had a TON of stats its willing to provide, and figuring out the different ones takes some thinking. For example, when watching the car heat the battery, the kw going to heat is interesting, the inlet temp is interesting, but the battery temp is the critical item. I saw precondition *not* happening when destined from one rapid charge to the other probably because the battery was already at temp. Fascinating.

Welcome to how complicated charging is... Because our cars are low voltage (<400V), we are always going to run into a current limit with the DC chargers before any voltage limits. So if you're looking at Car Scanner data, you can just focus on the amperage column. I'm actually a proponent of rating chargers by amperage instead of kilowatts, it's more directly applicable to the speed most cars will charge at. A 150 kW EA station will either be 350A or 375A max (depends on charger brand).

Basically I'm happy if I get a charger that actually advertises 350 A is available, is is very common that they output less than their rated specs, and it can change while you're using them. For example, you'll see 200A max a lot because of cable cooling failures. The smaller 50 kW stations only typically do 125A max.

Looking at the amps the car is requesting (OAR) vs. the max the charger is offering will tell you what's limiting. I wish the Mach-E would show "limited by charger" or "limited by vehicle" along with the kW on the display so you know if you have a slow charger rather than having to use a scan tool. Rivian shows what's limiting on the display, no scan tool needed.

The battery likes to be 25ºC or higher for full speed DC charging, that's what you should arrive at if preconditioning is working well. It may heat further up to 35ºC during high power charging sessions.

And you're right, most people using the DC chargers really have no clue if their charge is going slower than it's supposed to and why that's happening. The car should tell the layperson if the charger is running slow or if the car is limiting charging speed because the battery temps. "Speed limited due to cold battery" would get a lot more people interested in preconditioning correctly.

 

[Miikka]

Looking at the amps the car is requesting (OAR) vs. the max the charger is offering will tell you what's limiting. I wish the Mach-E would show "limited by charger" or "limited by vehicle" along with the kW on the display so you know if you have a slow charger rather than having to use a scan tool. Rivian shows what's limiting on the display, no scan tool needed.

What's your view on how to monitor what the charger is offering - is it just simply the HVB current (HvbA)? I get the request part and that's simple then to compare but how to check the offer part in case charger isn't making it visible in it's own screen?

Trying my first steps with CarScanner and getting used to the different data so just cross-checking that I am understanding all things correct.

Thanks!

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Well, yesterday I took my wife’s 4X to our recently upgraded EA station (all 350kw) just to see if it was any better than the old 150s. Starting SOC was 28% and temp was 60F. I stopped at 50% after 9 minutes.

Plus, there was this one fool that didn’t belong ?

That looks familiar. I was there on Friday on my way home to AZ.

I got around 152 kW peak. But the peak is so short-lived that it's really not the key to fast charging.

 

[bbulkow]

Welcome to how complicated charging is... Because our cars are low voltage (<400V), we are always going to run into a current limit with the DC chargers before any voltage limits. So if you're looking at Car Scanner data, you can just focus on the amperage column. I'm actually a proponent of rating chargers by amperage instead of kilowatts, it's more directly applicable to the speed most cars will charge at. A 150 kW EA station will either be 350A or 375A max (depends on charger brand).

Basically I'm happy if I get a charger that actually advertises 350 A is available, is is very common that they output less than their rated specs, and it can change while you're using them. For example, you'll see 200A max a lot because of cable cooling failures. The smaller 50 kW stations only typically do 125A max.

Looking at the amps the car is requesting (OAR) vs. the max the charger is offering will tell you what's limiting. I wish the Mach-E would show "limited by charger" or "limited by vehicle" along with the kW on the display so you know if you have a slow charger rather than having to use a scan tool. Rivian shows what's limiting on the display, no scan tool needed.


And you're right, most people using the DC chargers really have no clue if their charge is going slower than it's supposed to and why that's happening. The car should tell the layperson if the charger is running slow or if the car is limiting charging speed because the battery temps.

Thanks, I think I am up to speed now. I am even happier I rarely road trip, this was for education purposes.

A real question.

It appears my car's max charging voltage is 355v reported by car scanner, with some fluctuation but not much.

Is 355v the nominal number, or should I have Ford look at it? (23 ER pack)

45v shy would leave 10% quick charge speed on the table. I would generally handwave this discrepancy off, but seems like others here have the data from their cars.

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