What Road Trip Charging Should Be

[dbsb3233]

Late to the convo here, but it's worth mentioning that the fossil fuel industry is, and always has been, heavily subsidized by the government for decades.

So with EV charging, let's give it the same playing field.

"The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil."
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fa...-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

Raw numbers are deceiving though. Gotta put them in context to the volume. The US consumes almost 20 million barrels of oil per day, or 7 billion/yr. At a rough average of $50/bbl, that's $350B of product. If $10B of that $20B you listed applies to oil, that's 5.7%. Compare that to subsidies for renewables that often reach 30%. Home solar often gets 30%. I got 17% subsidy for my Mach-E purchase (state+federal). And 30% on my EVSE install. I've already enjoyed "free" charging (often courtesy of taxpayers) in many places on a recent road trip.

But more importantly is what "direct subsidies" really means for oil/gas. It's usually tax treatment. Every industry gets tax deductions that fit their situations, just like individual taxpayers do. The only way to really compare that tax treatment in an apples-to-apples way across industries is to compare their effective tax rates. Many are surprised to see that the energy industry (mostly oil/gas) pays the 2nd highest effective tax rate in the US among major industries. This was from a few years ago but it still holds true. It's just a really good graph (click on The View By Industry)...

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyt...05/25/sunday-review/corporate-taxes.html?_r=0

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[All Hat No Cattle]

That's probably true for someone who does 80 percent of charging at home. Probably not for someone who does 51 percent of charging at home. That second person will never recoup the vehicle price difference, especially if you include interest.

True. If you do most of your charging away from home, a BEV may not be for you.

Other posters on here have stated that road charging can cost less than home charging. Doesn't it depend on the gasser you are comparing it to?

But here is the important statement on what really counts.

If you do most of your charging at home, as most people that work do, you will save so much money on annual fuel costs that what you pay for fuel on road trips will not matter.

 

[All Hat No Cattle]

I've done the same cost comparison vs my Escape. Cost-wise, home charging is about 1/3rd the cost of gas per-mile, while EA Pass+ is about equal to gas.

Home charging is easier than gas, but road charging is much harder and limited. Often to the point of eliminating many routes.

How people choose to add all that up and weigh them comes down to personal preference for their situations.

I wonder how the cost comparison would match up to a , say, 1969 Mustang Mach 1?

 

[theo1000]

If you do most of your charging at home, as most people that work do, you will save so much money on annual fuel costs that what you pay for fuel on road trips will not matter.

Depends on location too. In Oklahoma the charges worked out to closer to 12 cents / kwh at some locations for me which is a very competitive rate.

Even on the medium term the 43 cents / kwhr that EA charges is not a mass market price. EV charging is too low still for the scale to bring down the numbers. But there is no reason EV's DC charging should not get under 10 cents / kwhr.

In parts of California or NE the domestic rates are high enough that the saving won't be there either.

 

[dbsb3233]

Depends on location too. In Oklahoma the charges worked out to closer to 12 cents / kwh at some locations for me which is a very competitive rate.

Even on the medium term the 43 cents / kwhr that EA charges is not a mass market price. EV charging is too low still for the scale to bring down the numbers. But there is no reason EV's DC charging should not get under 10 cents / kwhr.

Most of the cost for DCFC charging is not electricity though. High power equipment is very expensive (sometimes 6 digits). Land leases can be expensive. Installation is expensive. Maintenance can be expensive. Ongoing administration and customer support can be expensive.
And customers are often using them during demand peak periods, leading either to high demand charges, or the need for expensive battery packs to time-shift.

It's like going out to a restaurant. The cost of the raw food is only a small share of what you're really paying for. Most of it is the convenience and service.

 

[dbsb3233]

If you do most of your charging at home, as most people that work do, you will save so much money on annual fuel costs that what you pay for fuel on road trips will not matter.

For the typical driver, this is generally true. But of course they're also usually paying somewhere around $10k-$15k more for the vehicle than the comparable ICE vehicle costs, which is more than they're saving on fuel. So it's kinda pay me now or pay me later.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Well, we all know what it does when you assume.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Raw numbers are deceiving though. Gotta put them in context to the volume. The US consumes almost 20 million barrels of oil per day, or 7 billion/yr. At a rough average of $50/bbl, that's $350B of product. If $10B of that $20B you listed applies to oil, that's 5.7%. Compare that to subsidies for renewables that often reach 30%. Home solar often gets 30%. I got 17% subsidy for my Mach-E purchase (state+federal). And 30% on my EVSE install. I've already enjoyed "free" charging (often courtesy of taxpayers) in many places on a recent road trip.

However, now you're comparing apples to individual grapes. The references to oil subsidies are industry-wide. To be a fair comparison you need to look at industry-wide subsidies for renewables, not pick and choose from particular parts of it.

 

[dbsb3233]

However, now you're comparing apples to individual grapes. The references to oil subsidies are industry-wide. To be a fair comparison you need to look at industry-wide subsidies for renewables, not pick and choose from particular parts of it.

That's true, the percentages in my examples were direct consumer credits (that consumers of oil/gas products don't enjoy). That's really on top the tax treatment that the producing businesses get (which is also usually far more favorable to renewables and less favorable for O/G). The gap on overall tax treatment is really wider than I first noted because favorable treatment applies on both ends (businesses and consumers).

That's not to say that there's not reasons for the far more favorable treatment of renewables and related products though. That's a much deeper discussion. (In fact this whole tangent is off topic.)

 

[ARK]

Late to the convo here, but it's worth mentioning that the fossil fuel industry is, and always has been, heavily subsidized by the government for decades.

So with EV charging, let's give it the same playing field.

"The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil."
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fa...-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

Regardless of whether the fossil fuel industry gets tax breaks above and beyond what is available to lots of other industries (debatable), consumers in the United States definitely are not paying a subsidized price. On the contrary, we get hit with a lot of taxes that jack up the price.

It’s not at the high level Europeans and many others pay, but we’re also definitely not getting the below market rates many energy producing countries provide their residents.

 

[theo1000]

Most of the cost for DCFC charging is not electricity though. High power equipment is very expensive (sometimes 6 digits). Land leases can be expensive. Installation is expensive. Maintenance can be expensive. Ongoing administration and customer support can be expensive.
And customers are often using them during demand peak periods, leading either to high demand charges, or the need for expensive battery packs to time-shift.

Yes, but they can also be cheap. There was a time the Cheapest EVSE for 40 amps was $2500 +. Now you can get one off brand for $250. The first CCS-1 50 kw fast charger back in the day used to be well north of $100,000 now they can be had for under $1,500 wholesale. As manufacturing scales up It will get a lot cheaper. Folks should keep an eye on the ultimate potential costs.

There are signs visible already that indicate this ability to squeeze down costs. Take a look at how quickly EA was able to install chargers coast to coast, imagine you tried to do that with Gas. The technology is inherently very simple, cost effective and can piggy back on existing infrastructure.

It should be possible that DC charge stations can change their prices hour by hour based on TOU. 9 PM it will be 6 cents, maybe 5 pm closer to 15 cents or 20 cents. You can do that with Charge equipment. Very early days yet.

 

[ChasingCoral]

(In fact this whole tangent is off topic.)

What else is new?!

 

[stmache]

Late to the convo here, but it's worth mentioning that the fossil fuel industry is, and always has been, heavily subsidized by the government for decades.

So with EV charging, let's give it the same playing field.

"The United States provides a number of tax subsidies to the fossil fuel industry as a means of encouraging domestic energy production. These include both direct subsidies to corporations, as well as other tax benefits to the fossil fuel industry. Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil."
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fa...-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

Totally agree! Move some of it over to renewable energy companies and EV "rebates" direct to consumers at time of sale.

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