Home charging data after 1,110 miles.

[timbop]

true that.... solar energy is NOT 'free'; but rather best expressed as the net cost after all tax credits / warranteed energy production. cheap solar panels typically only have 10 yr warranty which lots of people forget when they go for the low bid. Much better to go for the 'premium' panels with 25 year parts and labor warranty.

I'd estimate that in most markets around the US, the 'true' cost of rooftop solar energy is probably around $.05-$.07/kWhr, which translates to lets say $0.02/mile in the average EV.

The other cost that many EV drivers choose to ignore is the amortized cost of batteries, which really are 'consumable'... If you take approximate 'replacement cost' of the battery pack/ expect warranted miles it becomes clear that cost is more significant than the energy.... on the order of $8000/100,000 = $0.08/mile

NOW you have some numbers to compare....
$.10 / mile for an EV running on sunshine, approximately.....

so, assuming the 'equivalent' ICE would get 25 miles/gallon, at $3/gallon, in a ICE Mustang for instance, the 'fuel cost' on the ICE side is more like $3/25 =
$.12 / mile
or, maybe a little more if you fold in the higher cost of maintenance for ICE engine and oil changes which is not insignificant over 100k miles. ie $50 just for oil every 5k miles with no other repairs is $1000 or so just for oil!

....so , yes, running on your own sunshine in the EV is less expensive, but really only when gas is over about $2.75/gallon if you consider batteries to be consumable.

That's true - since ICE engines have NO depreciation, repair, or breakdown and thus last forever then the only cost for them is the $.12/mile gas

There's also the fact that the battery is warranted at a MINIMUM to retain 70% after 100k miles, so in reality the battery is likely to outlive the chassis. But yeah, ICE is definitely the lower TCO

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[dtbaker61]

That's true - since ICE engines have NO depreciation, repair, or breakdown and thus last forever then the only cost for them is the $.12/mile gas

There's also the fact that the battery is warranted at a MINIMUM to retain 70% after 100k miles, so in reality the battery is likely to outlive the chassis. But yeah, ICE is definitely the lower TCO

I was just trying to level the 'fuel and consumables' costs, not the whole cost of ownership question. The thread was plugging along clarifying the cost of Solar Energy as not being 'free' and I thought it was pretty important to consider batteries as a consumable if you want to consider the fuel cost.

Obviously, the fuel cost for ICE changes drastically with the price of gas... and the cost of batteries is a total guess in 10 years...

The only thing I am sure of is that if you have Solar, and generate your own energy, you will be saving money over the long haul at the same time you are helping mitigate CO2 and other pollutants. The MME just makes it all the more fun.

 

[dbsb3233]

The only thing I am sure of is that if you have Solar, and generate your own energy, you will be saving money over the long haul

Usually, but even that depends on the situation. Like whether the person can charge during sunlight vs night, whether they have TOD pricing, and what their net metering rates are.

For instance, some people may work during the day and have to charge at night (paying grid rates). If there's no TOD pricing, that could be something like $0.13/kWh. If their net metering rates are closer to the wholesale cost of electricity (say, $0.05/kWh), it could cost them $0.08/kWh to charge the car. That difference may not be enough to overcome the costs of the solar system.

Just depands on the situation. If their situation was favorable enough to justify solar to begin with, you're likely right that it'll still save them money charging the car too.

 

[timbop]

I was just trying to level the 'fuel and consumables' costs, not the whole cost of ownership question. The thread was plugging along clarifying the cost of Solar Energy as not being 'free' and I thought it was pretty important to consider batteries as a consumable if you want to consider the fuel cost.

Obviously, the fuel cost for ICE changes drastically with the price of gas... and the cost of batteries is a total guess in 10 years...

The only thing I am sure of is that if you have Solar, and generate your own energy, you will be saving money over the long haul at the same time you are helping mitigate CO2 and other pollutants. The MME just makes it all the more fun.

Right, but the battery should NOT be considered a consumable. It is likely to outlive the chassis, as I said.

As for solar, I think the initial point being made is that the electricity from the solar panels wasn't really "free" because the panels had to be paid for.

While not free, it is a far better option than using coal or natural gas to generate the electricity, and in most cases comes in at the same price or cheaper than electricity from a utility company. At that point there is no reason NOT to go solar, because the worst case without government incentives you're paying the same amount without the pollution form mining and then burning fossil fuels. The fact that it can gie you some energy independence in a case like we saw in Texas last February is just a bonus.

 

[Billyk24]

true that.... solar energy is NOT 'free'; but rather best expressed as the net cost after all tax credits / warranteed energy production. cheap solar panels typically only have 10 yr warranty which lots of people forget when they go for the low bid. Much better to go for the 'premium' panels with 25 year parts and labor warranty.

I'd estimate that in most markets around the US, the 'true' cost of rooftop solar energy is probably around $.05-$.07/kWhr, which translates to lets say $0.02/mile in the average EV.

The other cost that many EV drivers choose to ignore is the amortized cost of batteries, which really are 'consumable'... If you take approximate 'replacement cost' of the battery pack/ expect warranted miles it becomes clear that cost is more significant than the energy.... on the order of $8000/100,000 = $0.08/mile

NOW you have some numbers to compare....
$.10 / mile for an EV running on sunshine, approximately.....

so, assuming the 'equivalent' ICE would get 25 miles/gallon, at $3/gallon, in a ICE Mustang for instance, the 'fuel cost' on the ICE side is more like $3/25 =
$.12 / mile
or, maybe a little more if you fold in the higher cost of maintenance for ICE engine and oil changes which is not insignificant over 100k miles. ie $50 just for oil every 5k miles with no other repairs is $1000 or so just for oil!

....so , yes, running on your own sunshine in the EV is less expensive, but really only when gas is over about $2.75/gallon if you consider batteries to be consumable.

Your figures are inflated: Many ICE owners are now going 10k between oil changes. A 5 Quart synthetic 0W20 Mobil 1 can be had for $23/24 at Walmart. $4 for the oil filter. Reduces the cost to around $270 for oil over 100,000 miles. Many of us with hybrid owners are 35+ mpg while PHEV owners are often 50+ mpg. Drops the stated figures even more.

Now, when one lives where there is nearly 100 inches of snow a year, the solar panels do not wark as well as one that lives in sunshine states.

 

[BadgerGreg]

Question: Of those using the Ford EVSE that comes with the car as a Level 2 charge does the car or the FordPass app give better data in the logs? As was pointed out my "dumb" but ultra reliable Clipper Creek EVSE can't tell me anything.

The FordPass app gives you electricity "received", which is the electricity used minus any losses through transmission and battery temperature management. This can be significant (>12%) for Level 1 and Level 2 charging. Unfortunately, the FordPass app gives this value to you in % charged, so you have to convert it to kWh based on your battery size, but I'm skeptical how accurate it is. It would be good for the FordPass app to be updated to that it tracks your charging session by kWh charged, in addition to % charged.

 

[Rando]

Gotta see pics of screen to believe 5.86 mpk. If I baby it I might get 3.6-3.8. I am averaging about 3.4 mpk.

1,923 miles driven MME exAWD from Odenton MD - 48 Hours of Hyper-miling Urban driving not faster that 50 mph, results 4.65 mpk. Highway driving two trips across the Chessapeak Bay Bridge to the easter shore not faster than 65 mph, results 4.17 mpk. Urban driving without hyper-miling is my daily norm, working from home, result 3.83 mpk.

 

[dbsb3233]

1,923 miles driven MME exAWD from Odenton MD - 48 Hours of Hyper-miling Urban driving not faster that 50 mph, results 4.65 mpk. Highway driving two trips across the Chessapeak Bay Bridge to the easter shore not faster than 65 mph, results 4.17 mpk. Urban driving without hyper-miling is my daily norm, working from home, result 3.83 mpk.

Since you're showing 2 decimal digits, that must be your own calculations and data. Curious what the car (trip meter) is showing instead for that 1923 miles?

 

[Ken Josing]

My Good News: Premium 2WD Extended Range Battery. Here is my driving style. I am old and the vehicle has been in “Whisper” mode the entire time. I use one pedal driving (outstanding) and have never floored the vehicle, not once. I use cruise control as much as possible and never drive over 70 if possible, been over a couple of times.

I began with keeping stats at 286 miles. Took that long to get my Excel file together. I break the 88% battery into 100% or .88 kWh per one percent. One Example, I drove 188 miles, the FordPass indicates I used 58% that is 51.04 actual kWh used. Estimated miles per kWh is 3.68 or 324.14 miles on a full charge.

Currently, I have 2,709 miles minus 286 (Starting Point). I have driven 2,423 miles using 661.76 kWh which is 3.66 miles per kWh and the estimated average on a full battery is 321.49 miles.

I did my homework and put solar on the house in July 2019. I hoped to cover the house usage and the eventual BEV. I knew at the get go that we were producing more then the house would use. I have not received a bill for electric, just one time for connection charges. During the three months with the MME I currently have 1,346 kWh credits beyond what we used in the house and MME. (Did my homework on meter reading)

We purchased the MME for the projected 305 miles so we could go everywhere we need to without taking time for charging away from the home and it is working. Not on cent spend on electricity so far. Twice we went to Chumash Casino in Solvang, CA. Customers have access to 10 Phrase 2 chargers for “Free” which produced 16 mph. My home charger, using the one provided with the MME is 22 mph.

All in all, incredibly pleased with the MME as it exceeds our expectations. Yes, a couple of things could be better, but nothing is perfect. Wherever we go often people come to look, or we get thumbs up. That has never happened before in my lifetime with a production vehicle.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

That is a fraction of the panels for collecting sun. I have a total of 29 panels with a 10.2 KWh output at maximum collecting capacity. Having no problems in meeting needs now. Have not faced serious summer temps yet with A/C demands.

We have 36 panels, 3 inverters, and two 16 kWh (each) batteries. We're in a very mild climate where temperatures rarely exceed 80, so A/C isn't an issue. In my vast MME experience (10 whole days), I've found that on a partly cloudy to a mostly cloudy day, the system still produces more power than the MME needs to charge while still running the house. Generally, I wait until the batteries are full, then start charging until late afternoon or early evening. And on sunny days (an abundance of those) all bets are off. Charge, run the electric dryer, the dishwasher, put a little in the batteries.

Free, clean power.

 

[krafty81]

 

[krafty81]

Charging buddies at work...it's free.

 

[RockDaphne98296]

I am fortunate in that I have access to a free level 2 charger at work, a free level 2 charger about a mile from my home, and a free level 3 charger about 8 miles from my house. At this point, my plan is to install a charger at home strictly for cabin and battery conditioning through the colder months.

I have free charging at work - not level 2, but free - haven't needed it so far... I charge at home - but I am curious - what are the locations that provide free charging you mentioned?

I live in Washington State - and surprisingly, our state and local government are not as EV friendly as you would assume. In fact they are desperate to figure out a tax to make up for lost gas tax sales to us EV and hybrid owners... they offer weak incentives for purchasing a EV or PHEV car - and if the price exceeds $35k - well you don't get anything...

 

[JoeDimwit]

I have free charging at work - not level 2, but free - haven't needed it so far... I charge at home - but I am curious - what are the locations that provide free charging you mentioned?

I live in Washington State - and surprisingly, our state and local government are not as EV friendly as you would assume. In fact they are desperate to figure out a tax to make up for lost gas tax sales to us EV and hybrid owners... they offer weak incentives for purchasing a EV or PHEV car - and if the price exceeds $35k - well you don't get anything...

For me, it breaks down like this…the Ford plant I work at had 4 Level 2 chargers, the Department of Public Works building (Waterford, MI) has 2 Level 2 chargers that are free, and there is a ChargePoint Level 3 (50kW) charger at the TopGolf in Auburn Hills, MI that is free., and finally a Level 3 (150kW) charger at the Meijer gas station in Auburn Hills, Mi.

 

[Rando]

Since you're showing 2 decimal digits, that must be your own calculations and data. Curious what the car (trip meter) is showing instead for that 1923 miles?

Data from my home ChargePoint Level 2 Logs the give me the actual recharge

Since you're showing 2 decimal digits, that must be your own calculations and data. Curious what the car (trip meter) is showing instead for that 1923 miles?

ChargePoint (L2 network connected) provides log data of actual charge which I reconcile with the FordApp report of charge received. My results are limited to two decimal places not rounded up or down. More date over a longer periord is warrented. I have some home built OBD tools and custom scripts that helped me verify the charge data but I am looking for any new OBD tools that might connect up and provide such.

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