OTA Mach-E DC Fast Charging speed and threshold increases coming this winter

[silverelan]

I just hope people don't get their expectations set for 90% based on this. I read it more as a maybe. Both a maybe of it happening at all, and a maybe as 90% being the new number (vs like 85% or something).

No doubt any expansion would be nice though. While the current charge curve works fine for me as it is, no one will complain about saving a few more minutes. ?

An improvement to the amount of time to charge should help keep the MME relevant, especially as new EVs with faster charging come to market. The average kW the MME ER takes in from 10-80% is below competitors in the 400V class so any meaningful improvement is helpful for both current owners and the longevity of the Mustang Mach-E.

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[Logal727]

An improvement to the amount of time to charge should help keep the MME relevant, especially as new EVs with faster charging come to market. The average kW the MME ER takes in from 10-80% is below competitors in the 400V class so any meaningful improvement is helpful for both current owners and the relevance of the Mustang Mach-E.

Yeah I was seriously considering a Ioniq 5 because of the 800v charging, but that looks like it won’t be widely available until next year and I had a deadline, also still no pricing. I’m glad I didn’t wait though, love my MME!

 

[dbsb3233]

A lot of this lack of knowledge is lack of dealer training or caring about EVs. Most car salesman think it's a passing fad that won't last. Others think it won't matter in their lifetime.

Sort of, but I don't lay much of it on the dealers. Consumers need to educate themselves if they plan to buy a BEV. There's a LOT of differences and subtleties that need to be learned. More than just a few tips that a salesperson might pass along (and likely be forgotten).

 

[yngwenli]

Hmmm. I guess it depends on what is meant by "massively behind". I consider it smart for Ford to have waited to really jump in until battery tech got good enough to deliver 300 mile range in desirable body styles. Starting any sooner wouldn't have made much sense for them IMO.

Ford is also very cognizant of consumer demand for BEVs, as it was only running at like 2% the last few years (and is still only like around 4-5%).

I think Ford got the timing just right.

From Sandy Munro videos, I think he mentioned 5+ years behind. For technology, 5 years behind anything is pretty bad and I'd categorize that as massively behind. Most investors won't invest in things if someone is 5 years behind someone else.

Even though those EV adopter % is low in the US, it's really because there was/is nothing available for sale/to buy honestly. Consumer choice currently is very bad. It'd be a lot higher if range was slightly better for something half affordable.

Look at Norway. EVs outsell ICE cars now (54%+ in Jan of this year. I'm sure it's higher now).
https://electrek.co/2021/01/07/all-electric-cars-market-share-norway-2020/

I got my Bolt back in 2019. The EV market was always there I feel, if there was a compelling full EV from Ford then, I certainly would have considered it.

 

[silverelan]

Yeah I was seriously considering a Ioniq 5 because of the 800v charging, but that looks like it won’t be widely available until next year and I had a deadline, also still no pricing. I’m glad I didn’t wait though, love my MME!

I did a mini-comparison between the MME and e-GMP cars here:
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/ev6-launch-ionic-5-drive-polestar-2-vs-mme.8676/post-242500

Basically, if you're doing 300-350 miles road trips then the time difference between the MME and 800v cars is measured in minutes.

Time difference to add 35kWh (~100 miles) from Kyle Connor's DCFC tests is 9 minutes.

Reducing that time gap on trips really helps, especially for quick top ups. Super excited to see Ford knows what's up and is making some changes.

 

[dbsb3233]

From Sandy Munro videos, I think he mentioned 5+ years behind. For technology, 5 years behind anything is pretty bad and I'd categorize that as massively behind. Most investors won't invest in things if someone is 5 years behind someone else.

Even though those EV adopter % is low in the US, it's really because there was/is nothing available for sale/to buy honestly. Consumer choice currently is very bad. It'd be a lot higher if range was slightly better for something half affordable.

Look at Norway. EVs outsell ICE cars now (54%+ in Jan of this year. I'm sure it's higher now).
https://electrek.co/2021/01/07/all-electric-cars-market-share-norway-2020/

I got my Bolt back in 2019. The EV market was always there I feel, if there was a compelling full EV from Ford then, I certainly would have considered it.

Norway is a dramatic exception to the rest of the world, yes. Ford doesn't make/sell vehicles for one exception though.

Munro is a bit of an exaggerating windbag, but yes, Ford is obviously behind Tesla on BEVs (everyone is). But that doesn't matter because 98% of their sales are ICE/hybrid. Ford simply (and smartly) wants to track market demand to maximize their total sales. They're not focused on just one type of vehicle like Tesla is.

 

[SnBGC]

From Sandy Munro videos, I think he mentioned 5+ years behind. For technology, 5 years behind anything is pretty bad and I'd categorize that as massively behind. Most investors won't invest in things if someone is 5 years behind someone else.

Even though those EV adopter % is low in the US, it's really because there was/is nothing available for sale/to buy honestly. Consumer choice currently is very bad. It'd be a lot higher if range was slightly better for something half affordable.

Look at Norway. EVs outsell ICE cars now (54%+ in Jan of this year. I'm sure it's higher now).
https://electrek.co/2021/01/07/all-electric-cars-market-share-norway-2020/

I got my Bolt back in 2019. The EV market was always there I feel, if there was a compelling full EV from Ford then, I certainly would have considered it.

Very valid points. I believe you are fairly close. GM and Chrysler are very far behind. Massively far behind is a good description. Ford has about a 4 year head start compared to those two which is now about two years because they abandoned most of the useful stuff they learned from Magna International.

All indications are that public demand for electrified vehicles is going to increase exponentially in the coming years. There is no way the American legacy automakers have any hope of meeting that demand for at least 5-8 years. This is going leave an opening for foreign manufactures to increase their market share.

 

[Logal727]

I did a mini-comparison between the MME and e-GMP cars here:
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/ev6-launch-ionic-5-drive-polestar-2-vs-mme.8676/post-242500

Basically, if you're doing 300-350 miles road trips then the time difference between the MME and 800v cars is measured in minutes.

Time difference to add 35kWh (~100 miles) from Kyle Connor's DCFC tests is 9 minutes.

Reducing that time gap on trips really helps, especially for quick top ups. Super excited to see Ford knows what's up and is making some changes.

Ah cool that’s good to know!

 

[Logal727]

Very valid points. I believe you are fairly close. GM and Chrysler are very far behind. Massively far behind is a good description. Ford has about a 4 year head start in those two which is now about two years because they abandoned most of the useful stuff they learned from Magna International.

All indications are that public demand for electrified vehicles is going to increase exponentially in the coming years. There is no way the American legacy automakers have any hope of meeting that demand for at least 5-8 years. This is going leave an opening for foreign manufactures to increase their market share.

After riding in my MME my in-laws are planning to make their next vehicle a BEV, though they need something bigger to carry all the grandkids around. So hopefully an Explorer or the Ioniq 7 will be available when they are ready.

 

[IMDIDOC]

You discovered what I did - that most EV drivers have no clue about charging. We talked with an ID4 driver and had to help him get it charged, all he could talk about was 3 years of free charging. He also told me that his car and mine had the same fast acceleration...

Woman pulled up in brand new Audi. Stuck in her credit card, had no knowledge of charging speeds or anything else for that matter.

This forum has many techy engineer types that want to know every detail. Yet, if EVs are to become mainstream, then why would the average person care about kWh or charging rates. I'm sure they don't care about the gas pumps pressure and why Mobil is quicker than Sunoco. Of course as frustration sets in, so will the education. It's awesome to be on the cutting edge, but it has its price too.

 

[breeves002]

Yeah ID4 get free EA charging, hopefully it’s not doing ONLY DCFC though, yikes.

Well if it’s at 34kW doesn’t matter that much haha.

 

[dbsb3233]

This forum has many techy engineer types that want to know every detail. Yet, if EVs are to become mainstream, then why would the average person care about kWh or charging rates. I'm sure they don't care about the gas pumps pressure and why Mobil is quicker than Sunoco. Of course as frustration sets in, so will the education. It's awesome to be on the cutting edge, but it has its price too.

Agree that we usually get deeper into the details here than the average driver will. And maybe the average kW number isn't something many will know. But average TIME to charge will be. That's why kW matters - not because people care about the power level per se, but because they care how long it will take to refuel during road trips.

Refueling time is irrelevant on a gas pump of course because it's so fast (like ~90 seconds). But when we're talking 20-40 minutes for a BEV, it's far more meaningful.

 

[SnBGC]

This forum has many techy engineer types that want to know every detail. Yet, if EVs are to become mainstream, then why would the average person care about kWh or charging rates. I'm sure they don't care about the gas pumps pressure and why Mobil is quicker than Sunoco. Of course as frustration sets in, so will the education. It's awesome to be on the cutting edge, but it has its price too.

Agree. My brother could care less about any of that. He just wants a consistent charging experience and doesn't understand excuses as to why his car would take 30 minutes to charge from 25% to 80% on one trip and 2 hours on a different trip.

I would like to drive to San Diego next weekend but I don't know if it will be a 7 hour or a 10 hour drive each way. We'll, it would be 6 hours in our Wrangler. 7 hours in the MME (my preferred option) if the DCFC is guaranteed to perform as it did before. However, if the DCFC performs like it did when I went to Tucson (2 days after the SD trip) then it would be more like 10 hours to get to San Diego.

My confidence in charging away from home or work is at an all time low. I knew it was sketchy but had not idea how serious the situation actually is.

 

[phil]

Even though those EV adopter % is low in the US, it's really because there was/is nothing available for sale/to buy honestly. Consumer choice currently is very bad. It'd be a lot higher if range was slightly better for something half affordable.

Look at Norway.

All of this is standard economics. EVs are unpopular because they are expensive. You can get a gas car for significantly less money. Simple as that. Someday, EVs may become more cost competitive. But today is not that day.

Norwegians buy EVs because their government taxes ICEVs to death, heavily subsiding EVs.

It's all about the money.

 

[yngwenli]

Norway is a dramatic exception to the rest of the world, yes. Ford doesn't make/sell vehicles for one exception though.

Munro is a bit of an exaggerating windbag, but yes, Ford is obviously behind Tesla on BEVs (everyone is). But that doesn't matter because 98% of their sales are ICE/hybrid. Ford simply (and smartly) wants to track market demand to maximize their total sales. They're not focused on just one type of vehicle like Tesla is.

I also want to clarify that I'm not anti-Ford nor anything. I have a MME on order right now, but get tons of people pointing me to Tesla, etc...with how great they are and how far ahead they are with every little thing. Again, we all know they have been doing this for 10+ years already. I'm actually more against Tesla for a mix of reasons (I'd prefer to never buy one), but feel legacy automakers need to really put the $$/resources and view themselves as way behind (like any startup fight) vs. treat this like an old legacy car problem.

Ford needs to keep their ears listening, eyes watching and look at themselves as the underdog even though they make 30x more revenue than Tesla still. It's ok to not maximize total car sales to make sure you're leading/competitive in the next auto market cycle (EVs).

Arrogance and complacency (due to their legacy ICE/vehicles/America) will lead them to be (trust me, I want them to succeed honestly (and pretty much every other EV maker out there)) another EV afterthought if they don't get this right.

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