Charging Costs (on the road)

[mjs020294]

Not sure if there has been a thread on charging costs?

One of the main benefits of a electric motor over an ICE is they are generally 2-3 times more efficient. That should equate to a 60-70% reduction in energy related running costs; which is true if you charge at home. However many of the fast charging stations are asking ridiculous rates compared to the actual electricity costs in the local market.

For instance here in Florida electricity is generally around 0:10 cents a kWh; at that rate there is a big financial benefits driving an EV over an ICE. Many of the fast charge stations in Florida charge up to 0:43 cents a kWh; at that rate the cost per mile is very similar to an ICE. I feel some of the national charging networks are practically price gouging. A 300-350% mark up over the price of the electricity in the local market is extreme profiteering. Gas stations generally make 5-8% profit per gallon.

This unrestricted profiteering doesn't really effect me personally because we charge using excess solar at home and free chargers my wife's work. But high rates at charging stations are going to impact a lot of people and be a prohibitive factor in the adoption of EVs. This issue need addressing nationally and caps need to be implemented on the mark ups above local electricity costs.

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[hybrid2bev]

Not sure if there has been a thread on charging costs?

One of the main benefits of a electric motor over an ICE is they are generally 2-3 times more efficient. That should equate to a 60-70% reduction in energy related running costs; which is true if you charge at home. However many of the fast charging stations are asking ridiculous rates compared to the actual electricity costs in the local market.

For instance here in Florida electricity is generally around 0:10 cents a kWh; at that rate there is a big financial benefits driving an EV over an ICE. Many of the fast charge stations in Florida charge up to 0:43 cents a kWh; at that rate the cost per mile is very similar to an ICE. I feel some of the national charging networks are practically price gouging. A 300-350% mark up over the price of the electricity in the local market is extreme profiteering. Gas stations generally make 5-8% profit per gallon.

This unrestricted profiteering doesn't really effect me personally because we charge using excess solar at home and free chargers my wife's work. But high rates at charging stations are going to impact a lot of people and be a prohibitive factor in the adoption of EVs. This issue need addressing nationally and caps need to be implemented on the mark ups above local electricity costs.

When DC fast charging you're paying for the convenience/speed of charging. The DC charging equipment and installation costs and the demand charges from the utility companies are much higher than level 2 AC charging. If you want cheap charging it will be slow. If you want it fast then it costs more.

Same thing with expedited shipping. You can get your package there quickly overnight but it will cost more. Or you can send it the cheap snail mail way and it will get there, but more slowly.

 

[timbop]

They have to amortize the $300,000 install cost per DCFC station over relatively low usage. The utilities also have "demand charges" that drive the cost of electricity for a DCFC much higher than the flat residential rate of electricity.

 

[Davedough]

I don't pretend to know everything about pricing and cost efficiency, but if you take Electrify America for instance. They're trying to build out an infrastructure to plan for the demand. That isn't cheap. Last time I looked, it costs roughly $30,000 per charger to deploy. They have to recoup those costs somewhere or the entire project stagnates.

I've charged from down low to 80% at their .43 cent rate and it cost me around $17 or so. That's MUCH less than it takes to fill my wife's Explorer.

 

[RickMachE]

Not sure if there has been a thread on charging costs?

One of the main benefits of a electric motor over an ICE is they are generally 2-3 times more efficient. That should equate to a 60-70% reduction in energy related running costs; which is true if you charge at home. However many of the fast charging stations are asking ridiculous rates compared to the actual electricity costs in the local market.

For instance here in Florida electricity is generally around 0:10 cents a kWh; at that rate there is a big financial benefits driving an EV over an ICE. Many of the fast charge stations in Florida charge up to 0:43 cents a kWh; at that rate the cost per mile is very similar to an ICE. I feel some of the national charging networks are practically price gouging. A 300-350% mark up over the price of the electricity in the local market is extreme profiteering. Gas stations generally make 5-8% profit per gallon.

This unrestricted profiteering doesn't really effect me personally because we charge using excess solar at home and free chargers my wife's work. But high rates at charging stations are going to impact a lot of people and be a prohibitive factor in the adoption of EVs. This issue need addressing nationally and caps need to be implemented on the mark ups above local electricity costs.

You might want to do some more research before making claims like "unrestricted profiteering".

EA offers Pass+, which provides $0.31 cents vs. $0.43 per kWh.

In many states, EA charges by the minute, because they aren't allowed to charge by the hour. Per minute rates under Pass+ are $0.24. The effective cost per kWh in those states is around $0.15. Hardly profiteering.

As far as comparing to ICE, I just drove our third long distance trip. The cost to drive 625 miles, including me filling the battery back up at home, was under $43.45, or 7 cents a mile.

Assuming a vehicle got 35mpg, and gas cost $4.15, driving 625 miles would have cost $74.11.

 

[mjs020294]

You can't really compare partially charging at EV to filling a car/SUV up with gas; especially when you're using temporarily high gas prices. Our Jeep Grand Cherokee costs around $90 to fill up right now with gas prices at artificially high rates. However a full tank in the Jeep gets us around 540 miles on the highway. Bottom line is energy costs for an EV should be significantly lower than an ICE.

Sure there are infrastructure costs but that also applies for new gas stations. Once a charging station is up and running it has minimal overheads compared to a gas station.

 

[timbop]

You can't really compare partially charging at EV to filling a car/SUV up with gas; especially when you're using temporarily high gas prices. Our Jeep Grand Cherokee costs around $90 to fill up right now with gas prices at artificially high rates. However a full tank in the Jeep gets us around 540 miles on the highway. Bottom line is energy costs for an EV should be significantly lower than an ICE.

Sure there are infrastructure costs but that also applies for new gas stations. Once a charging station is up and running it has minimal overheads compared to a gas station.

Again it has to do with spreading the capital costs over N charging events. The number of cars stopping at that gas station is significantly higher than the utilization of an EVSE. Since N is much higher for a gas pump, the capital cost per fillup is much less.

There's also the per-pump vs per-EVSE event time. A single pump can service 15 cars an hour, an EVSE 3.

 

[kltye]

The biggest ongoing cost is the demand charges that EA faces. Their per kWh costs shoot up to way above residential costs, because suddenly demanding 100+kW (equivalent to several dozen households' worth of power usage) places a not-insignificant load on the power generators. So no, you can't use your residential rate to compare against DCFC electrical rates.

 

[TruWrecks]

Just calculate the actual costs of driving an MME 250 miles at $0.31 /kWh (Ford Pass member rate and EA Pass+). Then calculate the actual ICE costs of a vehicle that is comparable directly to the MME, like a fully loaded Nissan Rough AWD or similar.

The MME will always be cheaper to drive, unless you purposely seek out the most expensive chargers.

 

[mjs020294]

Just calculate the actual costs of driving an MME 250 miles at $0.31 /kWh (Ford Pass member rate and EA Pass+). Then calculate the actual ICE costs of a vehicle that is comparable directly to the MME, like a fully loaded Nissan Rough AWD or similar.

The MME will always be cheaper to drive, unless you purposely seek out the most expensive chargers.

Right now with gas over $4 a gallon the EV is cheaper but if gas goes back below $3 then its a pretty tight call with electricity over $0:30/kWh.

 

[kltye]

Commercial rates are a lot lower that residential rates.

I don't think you're understanding what demand charges are. You can Google the definition and look at how much more expensive per kWh are for demand charges, which are not the same as commercial rates. It's expensive enough that EA is thinking of installing batteries at several sites to offset that cost.

 

[TruWrecks]

A single pump can service 15 cars an hour, an EVSE 3.

I haven't seen a single pump yet in my life handle more than 6 or 7 cars an hour.

All the fuel tanks would have to be less than 15 gallons and all paying exact cash. No delays. No drivers leaving their cars and no snack bars. You a proposing the hypothetical NASCAR station that doesn't exist.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

They have to amortize the $300,000 install cost per DCFC station over relatively low usage. The utilities also have "demand charges" that drive the cost of electricity for a DCFC much higher than the flat residential rate of electricity.

This.

I'm sure EA can install their DCFC stations for a bit less than $300k, but not much less. There haven't been many federal or state incentives for installing EV chargers on the commercial level yet. The expired 30C tax credit, which provided for a 10% credit, up to $30k, for the cost of installation did not really mitigate the costs. There's some depreciation that can be taken, but there isn't a special depreciation incentive for EV charging businesses. The new law will fix some of this.

Nearly every gas station receives massive federal and state incentives. For example, a gas station with just the right revenue profile can claim on their federal taxes a 150% reducing balance depreciation, depreciated over 15 years, which is basically a 10% bonus every year for 15 years. That's in addition to the 100% bonus depreciation for the first year of service if put into service after 2017. That's a write-off worth about 50% of the capital costs, which immediately reduces taxable income by about 50% of the capital cost of acquiring/building the gas station. Putting a gas station into service is, if you can afford the capital costs, very quickly nearly free money, much of it subsidized by federal tax payers, and a bunch more subsidized by state tax payers.

Not so for EV chargers, EV charging businesses only get the normal depreciation of operating a business (and a 39-year depreciation on a commercial building if they build one, which almost nobody does). With the new law, they'll also get a small, one-time tax credit. Grants that are being made available count as income, so have to be claimed on business taxes.

OP has the calculus backwards.

Gasoline is artificially cheaper than it should be. Even at the current high prices. Because customers don't pay directly for the cost of building the gas station, that cost is spread to every federal tax payer, even those who don't drive an ICE.

 

[mjs020294]

I don't think you're understanding what demand charges are. You can Google the definition and look at how much more expensive per kWh are for demand charges, which are not the same as commercial rates. It's expensive enough that EA is thinking of installing batteries at several sites to offset that cost.

That is all part of the equation for sure. Power companies generally have excess electricity during the daytime, and that surplus is growing as the solar footprint increases. Power companies should be investing in charging stations which is cheaper than building battery farms. We are actually heading towards a major issue with the electricity grid as the number of EVs on the roads increases. What is the first thing many EV drivers do in the evening when they get home?

 

[RickMachE]

That is all part of the equation for sure. Power companies generally have excess electricity during the daytime, and that surplus is growing as the solar footprint increases. Power companies should be investing in charging stations which is cheaper than building battery farms. We are actually heading towards a major issue with the electricity grid as the number of EVs on the roads increases. What is the first thing many EV drivers do in the evening when they get home?

Plug in, with the car set to wait for off-peak rates...

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