Federal administration proposes new rules for EV charging stations

[Maquis]

It’s about having a great transit infrastructure. Most interstates were built/funded by the government. This led to better trade between states, economic growth, and no one really debates that this was the right thing to do. I do not agree with blanket subsidies for any foolish cause. But certain things are worth the investment. I believe transit is one of them.

Nothing is “funded by the government”. The interstate highway system was built and originally funded by a 50% increase in the federal motor fuel tax.
Maybe we should eliminate the $7500 tax credit and divert those funds to building charging infrastructure?

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[dbsb3233]

Oh there certainly needs to be some city DCFC as well. In appropriate spots. But that's usually not gas stations, and certainly not ALL gas stations. That was my point.

The right solution is getting L2 into apartment and condo complexes where people sleep. It's better for batteries, better for the grid, better for drivers. If government is going to mandate, they should mandate the much better solution.

Also, if I am stuck having to DCFC locally all the time for some reason*, I'd much rather that DCFC be in something like a grocery store parking lot than a corner gas station, so I can make some use out of that 20-30 minutes. Preferably one that also has restaurant options in the same lot.

* Which I would only do if I were waiting for a replacement EVSE for home. I would never buy an EV without convenient, dependable, cheap overnight home charging. That's the main advantage that makes it all worth it.

 

[jlauro]

Nothing is “funded by the government”. The interstate highway system was built and originally funded by a 50% increase in the federal motor fuel tax.

I'm confused as you are contradicting yourself... First stating nothing is funded by the government and then stating that it was funded by taxes, which only the government controls, collects, and redistributes.

 

[Mirak]

I don't agree. Subsidies are not free, and make the market less efficient, causing inflation and dislocations. I don't support them at all.

And if you put price controls on DCFC stations, you will make it less likely that new stations will be built and less likely existing stations will be maintained properly, resulting in stations with broken chargers that never get fixed.

And then you will complain that the government subsidized all these DCFC stations that don't work, so they are useless. So then what do you do? Fine the station operators because they are not repairing their own equipment because they can't afford to because they cannot charge enough to make the business viable?

No, subsidies and price controls are very bad policy. Very bad.

Generally true. Also true that you’re not gonna sufficiently build out the DCFC network without massive subsidies, because they aren’t even remotely profitable. So what is your point?

“The market” isn’t going to fix this until advances in technology make it possible to bring down cost. I’m as conservative as they come and I understand economics (but I repeat myself), but I’m enjoying the heck out of my taxpayer subsidized EV and I’d rather not wait 10 years for the next big leap in battery tech (which is what this is really all about). If we’re gonna burn it all down with running trillion dollar deficits anyway, might as well get something back for the insane taxes I pay.

 

[dbsb3233]

I’m enjoying the heck out of my taxpayer subsidized EV and I’d rather not wait 10 years for the next big leap in battery tech (which is what this is really all about). If we’re gonna burn it all down with running trillion dollar deficits anyway, might as well get something back for the insane taxes I pay.

There was some twisted satisfaction in finally getting back some of my tax dollars that I've paid in over many years to subsidize other people's fancy new cars.

 

[Mirak]

There was some twisted satisfaction in finally getting back some of my tax dollars that I've paid in over many years to subsidize other people's fancy new cars.

I suspect I’ll feel the same when I can finally draw SS - if there’s anything left by then.

 

[Mirak]

So a funny observation about the current lack of DCFC beyond the coasts and major metros: next week I’m driving from Wichita to Cimarron, New Mexico to attend Philmont (the crown jewel of Boy Scout High Adventure).

The route for my ICE takes 7.5hrs. To make this apples to apples, make it 8.5 to account for fuel/lunch stops. The route for my MME takes…. FIFTEEN HOURS. The charging adds a few hours by itself, but the route - having to stick to major interstates - is just terrible.

This is a problem often overlooked by all those road trip challenges on YouTube. People drive many places that are not conveniently serviced by the major interstates, and that becomes a big problem in much of the US where the only DCFC to be found is along the major interstates.

Of course I’m taking the ICE.

 

[AhardFSU]

So a funny observation about the current lack of DCFC beyond the coasts and major metros: next week I’m driving from Wichita to Cimarron, New Mexico to attend Philmont (the crown jewel of Boy Scout High Adventure).

The route for my ICE takes 7.5hrs. To make this apples to apples, make it 8.5 to account for fuel/lunch stops. The route for my MME takes…. FIFTEEN HOURS. The charging adds a few hours by itself, but the route - having to stick to major interstates - is just terrible.

This is a problem often overlooked by all those road trip challenges on YouTube. People drive many places that are not conveniently serviced by the major interstates, and that becomes a big problem in much of the US where the only DCFC to be found is along the major interstates.

Of course I’m taking the ICE.

I’m going to do a “yeah but” here. Yeah but it depends on what state you’re in. Here in FL, the local electricity providers have DCFC stations throughout rural parts of the start that aren’t on major interstate routes.

That’s obviously not the case in say Montana or Wyoming. When we start talking about fast charging in rural areas that aren’t on the major interstates, then to me that is where state and local governments have to step in.

That’s what happened here in Florida with some of those DCFCs on rural routes.

 

[mkhuffman]

If we’re gonna burn it all down with running trillion dollar deficits anyway, might as well get something back for the insane taxes I pay.

I understand the sentiment, but wasting more money giving subsidies that help rich people is not the answer. I might agree with you if we had a balanced budget, lower taxes, and we cut something else to pay for the subsidies.

The best answer is cutting taxes, cutting spending, and cutting regulations so DCFC stations can actually be profitable and so entrepreneurs actually want to build them. Enticing businesses to build unprofitable stations will likely mean they will be neglected and not maintained properly.

So will you also support subsidies to businesses to maintain their equipment since they cannot make money running them? I won't.

 

[dbsb3233]

I’m going to do a “yeah but” here. Yeah but it depends on what state you’re in. Here in FL, the local electricity providers have DCFC stations throughout rural parts of the start that aren’t on major interstate routes.

That’s obviously not the case in say Montana or Wyoming. When we start talking about fast charging in rural areas that aren’t on the major interstates, then to me that is where state and local governments have to step in.

That’s what happened here in Florida with some of those DCFCs on rural routes.

Yep, it's all very route-dependent right now. Some routes are great, others still lacking. We drive Denver-Vegas a lot which is a great route. But Denver-Rapid City sucks. We were also thinking of a drive down to Calsbad Caverns which also has a big dead zone.

You're right, some states are doing a good job of filling in smaller highways. CO has done a pretty good job in the mountains. UT has scatter in some state-sponsored chargers. NM is supposed to be adding some but progress has been slow. OK looks like they're done pretty good. Just depends on the state, and the route. But ElectrifyAmerica is certainly the first choice. I always check their map first.

 

[yngwenli]

The best answer is cutting taxes, cutting spending, and cutting regulations so DCFC stations can actually be profitable and so entrepreneurs actually want to build them. Enticing businesses to build unprofitable stations will likely mean they will be neglected and not maintained properly.

What regulartion is blocking DCFC stations from being profitable?

Is there any business model where DCFC can ever be profitable? They simply cost too much to build ($150k per station, even more for higher W stations?). Tesla loses money on their network to simply have the best charging experience for their car buyers where they make their $$ and selling credits to other manufacturers.

People who own EVs usually own homes. Those people charge at home at lower rates or have solar so they charge for free since the solar was already a sunk cost outside of buying an EV.

If the DCFC charged too much (EA is like $0.48/kWh which is more than most people's rates so that means you simply never charge outside), who will use these stations then? It's already so cut throat.

You can't put them in a mall neither since those are close enough to people's homes usually.


My point in all this is the DCFC situation is a bad entrepreneur business opportunity. 90% of the time during the week, no one will use these stations outside of travellers and apartment dwellers who commute a lot.

This is why either we will have no DCFC because it's a bad business or just make it a shared cost that everyone pays for (government/maybe some EV fee when someone buys, who knows), but depending on entrepreneurs to build it means it's not happening because it's a bad business model still and has never been good.

Good thing for Diesel gate and VW being forced to build/fund EA to the tune of $2+ billion since that network seems to be half decent now.

 

[mkhuffman]

What regulartion is blocking DCFC stations from being profitable?

There are a huge number of state and local regulations that control what, where and how new construction can be done. Some are simply zoning regulations but there are permits and approvals people need to get to build a DCFC station. If you have built a house you get a small taste of what I mean.

Electricity is skyrocketing in cost due to environmental regulations on power plants and restrictions on power delivery methods. If those were eliminated the cost of electricity would drop making stations more viable.

So government is driving up the cost of building and running stations with one set of policies, and then giving business money to encourage them to be built with another set of policies. If it wasn't my money they were wasting it would be funny. It isn't funny at all.

 

[jlauro]

So government is driving up the cost of building and running stations with one set of policies, and then giving business money to encourage them to be built with another set of policies. If it wasn't my money they were wasting it would be funny. It isn't funny at all.

I agree it's driving up costs, but it's the cost of doing business as with any other business. Many of those regulations are important for safety and consumer protection ensuring a minimum set of expected standards. However, I don't agree they are to the point of making it unprofitable.

It can also be an opportunity by making the stop more than a charging station. Most gas stations have convenience stores built in.

Quick search from google found:

Today, 80% of all gas stations have a convenience store on site.

The goods inside these stores — Doritos, sunglasses, lotto tickets, energy drinks — only account for ~30% of the average gas station’s revenue, yet bring in 70% of the profit.

 

[mkhuffman]

I agree it's driving up costs, but it's the cost of doing business as with any other business. Many of those regulations are important for safety and consumer protection ensuring a minimum set of expected standards. However, I don't agree they are to the point of making it unprofitable.

It can also be an opportunity by making the stop more than a charging station. Most gas stations have convenience stores built in.

Quick search from google found:

If this is true, we don't need subsidies. If it isn't true, we need to make it cheaper instead of giving businesses our tax money. Regardless, I think we need fewer regulations so that the cost of electricity does not skyrocket, eventually making EVs more expense to operate than ICE cars.

 

[Maquis]

I'm confused as you are contradicting yourself... First stating nothing is funded by the government and then stating that it was funded by taxes, which only the government controls, collects, and redistributes.

No contradiction at all. The source of funding is the taxpayer. The government is just a middleman, not the source.

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