The major weakness of the MME (and all non-Tesla EVs) -- reliable, robust charging network doesn't exist

[agoldman]

Have to agree with the OP 100%. sad but true for now.

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[roamtheworld]

It can be one of those "it only takes one bad experience" things. A road trip may have 9 perfect charges but it only takes 1 bad one along the way for many people to say "no more". Especially if it's a really bad one that leaves you stranded.

That's why I do so much pre-planning of my routes, and usually stop sooner to charge where I leave a backup station in range just in case. Had to use the backup 2 or 3 times now in 100+ DCFCs.

But many people don't want to go through that much trouble either. I get that. Also, there's a lot of little tricks that I've learned to attempt to get a charger to work when it didn't at first. Many people just give up on it at that point. But sometimes the 2nd cable on an EA charger works when the first didn't. Sometimes a charger looks down but it's only the screen. Sometimes P&C won't work but app swipe does, or phone tap, or credit card. Sometimes EA customer support can restart the charger and get it working.

Those are all annoying steps to mess with when it doesn't work on first attempt, but that's far better than getting stranded.

Dealing with that occasional messiness just isn't for everyone.

We have been road tripping the past couple of weeks around Texas and I still see new gas stations being installed in large numbers and we still have to plan trips in our EV. In many parts of the country including as the OP pointed out even CA it still requires a lot of planning. We are all early adopters if we don't own a Tesla and it can be VERY inconvenient if just one thing goes wrong. As pointed out in many posts MUCH more infrastructure needs to be added to make EV use as easy as ICE driving is today. Even adding just 1 DCFC to every gas station would solve the problems we have today. We have so many gas stations that even if the one failed DCFC you could easily go across the street to the next station and charge up. The planned EV state infrastructure is a good start but to move EVs mainstream DCFC needs to be as ambiguous as ICE gas stations. Most of Europe can fit inside of Texas or California to show the scale of the improvement challenge.
Still happy with our purchase of the Mach E our first EV!

 

[RickMachE]

We have been road tripping the past couple of weeks around Texas and I still see new gas stations being installed in large numbers and we still have to plan trips in our EV. In many parts of the country including as the OP pointed out even CA it still requires a lot of planning. We are all early adopters if we don't own a Tesla and it can be VERY inconvenient if just one thing goes wrong. As pointed out in many posts MUCH more infrastructure needs to be added to make EV use as easy as ICE driving is today. Even adding just 1 DCFC to every gas station would solve the problems we have today. We have so many gas stations that even if the one failed DCFC you could easily go across the street to the next station and charge up. The planned EV state infrastructure is a good start but to move EVs mainstream DCFC needs to be as ambiguous as ICE gas stations. Most of Europe can fit inside of Texas or California to show the scale of the improvement challenge.
Still happy with our purchase of the Mach E our first EV!

For a gas station to add one DCFC is cost prohibitive. The infrastructure bill will be adding 500,000 chargers over 5 years.

 

[Billyk24]

We've driven north and south, east and west with the MME - up to the western portion of Michigan's UP, west to Kansas City, east to West Virginia. I only experienced waiting once at a DCFC because a station was broken. With the OBCC updates, EvGO chargers have been working just fine for us. We don't even have home charging, and we're nearing 16,000 miles over the last 16 months of ownership.
My biggest gripe for the lack of charger coverage is partially because of reliability concerns, but mostly so I don't have to stay at a DCFC past my optimal charge curve just to be able to arrive at the next one with enough buffer.

Up the Western portion of the UP of Michigan? There are no dcfc in that region. Only four ccs dcfc in the UP of Michigan. The one at Norway has been broken for a year now and runs at 27kW.

 

[kltye]

Up the Western portion of the UP of Michigan? There are no dcfc in that region. Only four ccs dcfc in the UP of Michigan. The one at Norway has been broken for a year now and runs at 27kW.

I guess Escanaba doesn't quite meet that geographical definition ?

 

[Billyk24]

Seeing a lot of similar type comments. Maybe I just have really lucky routes. Albany to Pittsburg - no issues and multiple routes and charging options. Albany to Philly - same. Philly to Pittsburg - same. No issues driving north to Montreal or to the Thousand Islands. No issues from Albany to Portland Maine either. As far as New Hampshire goes (another post), We were able to get all the way from Portland to the Albany area on a single charge (off the highway - through southern NH and VT) so no real attempts there. We have also been out to Western Long Island as well as to Plattsburg, Cortland, and Elmira with no issues. Doing lots of college visits with the oldest child lately.

Wait a minute. Philly to Pittsburgh on the turnpike? Last time I looked there was only two charging locations with over 200 mile distance between.

 

[Billyk24]

I guess Escanaba doesn't quite meet that geographical definition ?

All 40 miles from Norway.

 

[kltye]

All 40 miles from Norway.

Really just wanted to make sure no one was thinking of the "regular" UP that people think about when we mention "UP".

 

[roamtheworld]

For a gas station to add one DCFC is cost prohibitive. The infrastructure bill will be adding 500,000 chargers over 5 years.

https://www.profitableventure.com/cost-start-a-gas-station/
$2.5 million is the average cost to open a gas station in 2022.
How is adding 1 DCFC cost prohibitive?
https://climatebiz.com/cost-of-an-ev-charging-station/
Cost could be as low as $50K for L3 we know pricing could be much more but so let's say $250K is average.
We know gas stations don't make profits on the sale of the gas but on other services such as food.
Adding a $250K charger with additional monthly electricity cost would still show a ROI to a station owner in a reasonable amount of time. You are future proofing your business. In 10-15 years a greater portion of your customers will be driving EVs so why not build that into your business plan now.

 

[dmastro]

i own a MME and love it, but frankly, never take it on long road trips. I would never buy a Tesla, but if forced to own one, I wouldn’t take it on road trips either. Elec cars just aren’t ready for that yet. I do go to our cottage (200miles) but only because I can charge it overnight there. I have a PHEV ( a Volt) for road trips.

I have the opposite view. I love road tripping in my Tesla and think their investment in their charging network has made it convenient to do so with confidence. I suppose I was naive in thinking that all DCFC would be as convenient.

 

[RickMachE]

https://www.profitableventure.com/cost-start-a-gas-station/
$2.5 million is the average cost to open a gas station in 2022.
How is adding 1 DCFC cost prohibitive?
https://climatebiz.com/cost-of-an-ev-charging-station/
Cost could be as low as $50K for L3 we know pricing could be much more but so let's say $250K is average.
We know gas stations don't make profits on the sale of the gas but on other services such as food.
Adding a $250K charger with additional monthly electricity cost would still show a ROI to a station owner in a reasonable amount of time. You are future proofing your business. In 10-15 years a greater portion of your customers will be driving EVs so why not build that into your business plan now.

I don't know how you do ROI, but no, it's not going to be a short period of time. You also have to put in battery storage to compensate for demand costs. And that assumes the station has the power feed necessary for Level 3 charging. Breakeven is many years out, if ever.

 

[RickMachE]

I have the opposite view. I love road tripping in my Tesla and think their investment in their charging network has made it convenient to do so with confidence. I suppose I was naive in thinking that all DCFC would be as convenient.

I think the right term is "uninformed". The information is out there for the taking. In some places it may be challenging, in others it's not. Want to go to see Mount Rushmore? Forget about it. Want to go see the Grand Canyon? Plan carefully (DC charging is going in currently). Want to drive from Michigan to Florida, over 1,400 miles each way? NON-ISSUE.

 

[roamtheworld]

I don't know how you do ROI, but no, it's not going to be a short period of time. You also have to put in battery storage to compensate for demand costs. And that assumes the station has the power feed necessary for Level 3 charging. Breakeven is many years out, if ever.

My statement is "Adding a $250K charger with additional monthly electricity cost would still show a ROI to a station owner in a reasonable amount of time." and "In 10-15 years"
Gas stations can cost many more millions to open $7+ million. Millions in gas cost alone each month for a high volume station. The cost for electrical services and hardware costs for L3 charging is pretty small compared to gas over the long haul.
I stand by my statement "You are future proofing your business."

I'm also not aware of any major battery storage usage currently being used by EA, EVgo or even Tesla today. This is also a future proof plan to make it more reliable and the reduce costs. I think it's a great idea to implement long term. Battery storage is outside of current plans for DCFC in the infrastructure plans across the country.

 

[Billyk24]

I think the right term is "uninformed". The information is out there for the taking. In some places it may be challenging, in others it's not. Want to go to see Mount Rushmore? Forget about it. Want to go see the Grand Canyon? Plan carefully (DC charging is going in currently). Want to drive from Michigan to Florida, over 1,400 miles each way? NON-ISSUE.

Want to travel just in Michigan, from the Mackinaw bridge to the top of "the world" in Michigan using dcfc ccs chargers? You can't make it. Too far and no ccs level 3 chargers.

 

[RickMachE]

Want to travel just in Michigan, from the Mackinaw bridge to the top of "the world" in Michigan using dcfc ccs chargers? You can't make it. Too far and no ccs level 3 chargers.

Yup. West Virginia, Montana, ...

If you're INFORMED, as you are, and as I am, you know this. It's not a surprise. It's information easily accessed.

Here's the plan prior to the plan that had to be submitted to the federal government, that showed adding charging in the UP. https://egle.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2c82b996255844b6967d3c46b072c0bd

https://mibiz.com/sections/energy/michigan-plans-110m-statewide-electric-vehicle-charging-network

I did see where the governors of Michigan, Indiana, Illinois and Wisconsin worked together to build an "electric route 66", i.e. the ability to drive all 1,100 miles of Lake Michigan's coastline. https://www.radioresultsnetwork.com/2022/08/03/218021/

I would be upset if Michigan focused too much resource in the UP, because of the population density / need, at the beginning. But clearly as the plan proceeds, and the additional $2.5B becomes available, the UP needs more charging.

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