The major weakness of the MME (and all non-Tesla EVs) -- reliable, robust charging network doesn't exist

[roamtheworld]

Many Walmarts/Targets are located within a few blocks of major highways (by design), making them apt traveler stops. I'm certainly not saying all stores should have them though. Especially in cities. DCFC should be mostly for travelers IMO (locals should be charging on L2 the vast majority of the time). So I'm mainly talking travel routes here, not the corner gas station in a neighborhood.

Gas is wholly different model than charging. It's a 3-4 minute task. Pop in, pump, and you're on your way. That model works for corner gas stations near where people live. But DCFC is totally different. It's a "park the car for half an hour" task, and do something else while it's charging. That doesn't fit well for a corner gas station. Especially since DCFC is mostly for travelers passing through.

Totally valid points!
In big states travel often it is not easy getting to the chargers. This will improve now that spending will happen to install more chargers.

We charge 90% at home it is only because we have been traveling a lot lately that I noticed again how hard it is to charge up. Gas stations are everywhere. No reason not to leverage this in some way. It's not a perfect solution.
I still find it hard to believe that Large gas stations are still being built today with one just a mile down the road from another Larger gas station.
Who is making money on these? EV charging can't be that large a financial risk over time.

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[dbsb3233]

I am not saying you are wrong and in general I agree with your goal; however, a quick calculation shows that IF there were 14 charges per day, 365 days a year, for 10 years they would have to charge $5 per charge on top of energy costs to break even. That does not include the time value of money nor any ongoing O&M costs. More importantly what “tech” these days lasts 10 - 15 years? My guess is they would need at a min an acceptable ROI in 7 years which brings it up to more like a $10 per charge fee. In reality this may be a per kWh adder but I have no idea what the average per hour per charger kWh supply rate is. Then the dealer would also be at risk for government subsidized installations having lower costs and perhaps being in better locations. On top of all of this I also believe a major issue is people can’t get gas at home so they have to stop and get gas. With a charger at home people will not stop to fuel up as often if ever for local driving. Just my thoughts and I could be way off but I do not think DCFC charging will be a money maker for some time without subsidization.

And let's not forget the other costs... equipment maintenance/replacement, payment processing fees, customer support, app development, administration, land rental, insurance, demand charges or battery costs (depending on which is employed), vandalism, etc.

Look at how much we all complain now about broken DCFC chargers. They break down frequently, and it costs a lot to fix or replace those things.

 

[Blue highway]

Totally valid points!
In big states travel often it is not easy getting to the chargers. This will improve now that spending will happen to install more chargers.

We charge 90% at home it is only because we have been traveling a lot lately that I noticed again how hard it is to charge up. Gas stations are everywhere. No reason not to leverage this in some way. It's not a perfect solution.
I still find it hard to believe that Large gas stations are still being built today with one just a mile down the road from another Larger gas station.
Who is making money on these? EV charging can't be that large a financial risk over time.

I'll make the prediction that over time your thinking will change from mimicking the gas pump experience to something along the lines of having the car charge while you are doing something else.... sleeping, shopping, eating, working. etc.

Over time, Electric charging stations will look like gas stations in the same way that gas stations look like horse barns.

 

[roamtheworld]

We need to get to the point where we don't need to be as informed, I think is the point that doesn't seem to be sinking in on this forum.

I respect that there is a very small percentage of drivers who are willing to (and enjoy) go through the hassle of researching all the potential EV stops on a route, using multiple apps, and all of the other hoops to jump through, but most drivers aren't.

Further, it doesn't have to be this way. Tesla has shown the way with a network of fast, reliable, convenient chargers. Their built-in nav programs a route with optimized charging stops down to the %. The nav screen also lets you tap to drill down to each charging station to see how many stalls are available in real time, what the charging speed is, peak times for the charging station, and then preconditions your battery while you're on your way. It's plug and play, and approachable for the 99% (or at least most of the 99%). Other manufacturers have the template in front of them to make EV ownership much simpler.

!00% correct
Money quote "Other manufacturers have the template in front of them to make EV ownership much simpler."

I have 7 apps and three cards to help with charging.

This is a huge gap IMO.

 

[roamtheworld]

I'll make the prediction that over time your thinking will change from mimicking the gas pump experience to something along the lines of having the car charge while you are doing something else.... sleeping, shopping, eating, working. etc.

Over time, Electric charging stations will look like gas stations in the same way that gas stations look like horse barns.

I hope so!
I hope it is in less than the predicted 2035 timelines that things change

 

[dbsb3233]

As TimCO pointed out many gas station have other amenities such as food.
Time spent charging is an issue we all are dealing with but how much time can you spend at Walmart while you charge? Never mind the extra time getting to Walmart all the time passing dozens of gas stations that could also offer charging for a fee. This isn't a gas station location should always have charging statement it is a gas stations should ALSO offer charging statement. We should have as many locations to choose from and the market will allow. After being forced to stop at a hotel with EA charger in the middle of Texas with Zero options nearby to get food makes it obvious we need choices .

It's often not the Walmart itself people are using when using an EA station there, although it is common to go in and use the bathrooms at minimum. Usually a Walmart/Target lot some restaurants on the outskirts of the parking lot too. It's really the combination of those options that make it a good fit. When doing a 500-mile day with 3 charging stops, we'll often each lunch at one in a restaurant in the lot, go in and grab a few items from the store on another stop, and use the bathroom. Maybe just walk around the lot the 3rd to stretch legs. We find they're pretty good fits for charging stops because of the multiple options. And when we do buy something, it's at good Walmart prices, not pricey convenience store prices. Plus Target/Walmart just has 1000x more possible items we might want vs a convenience store.

Convenience stores are OK too, of course, but a full Walmart/Target is better. About the only downside is they're not all 24x7 in smaller towns, thus if traveling in the middle of the night, the bathrooms may not be accessible. And while most (that have EA) are close to the highway, not all are. That's annoying when it's 10 minutes off the highway.

 

[sotek2345]

Many Walmarts/Targets are located within a few blocks of major highways (by design), making them apt traveler stops. I'm certainly not saying all stores should have them though. Especially in cities. DCFC should be mostly for travelers IMO (locals should be charging on L2 the vast majority of the time). So I'm mainly talking travel routes here, not the corner gas station in a neighborhood.

Gas is wholly different model than charging. It's a 3-4 minute task. Pop in, pump, and you're on your way. That model works for corner gas stations near where people live. But DCFC is totally different. It's a "park the car for half an hour" task, and do something else while it's charging. That doesn't fit well for a corner gas station. Especially since DCFC is mostly for travelers passing through.

It really depends on the gas station. I much prefer stopping at a Sheetz or Loves vs. a Walmart for charging.

 

[nvabill]

We need to get to the point where we don't need to be as informed, I think is the point that doesn't seem to be sinking in on this forum.

I respect that there is a very small percentage of drivers who are willing to (and enjoy) go through the hassle of researching all the potential EV stops on a route, using multiple apps, and all of the other hoops to jump through, but most drivers aren't.

Further, it doesn't have to be this way. Tesla has shown the way with a network of fast, reliable, convenient chargers. Their built-in nav programs a route with optimized charging stops down to the %. The nav screen also lets you tap to drill down to each charging station to see how many stalls are available in real time, what the charging speed is, peak times for the charging station, and then preconditions your battery while you're on your way. It's plug and play, and approachable for the 99% (or at least most of the 99%). Other manufacturers have the template in front of them to make EV ownership much simpler.

This!

Again, you are spot on with your comments and I wholeheartedly agree. Personally I don’t want to be on a scavenger hunt every time I take a trip in an EV, it’s just plain ridiculous! It’s bad enough killing 30-40 minutes to charge an EV but having to do all this planning is just not for me.

And to be quite clear I’m not uniformed when it comes to technology. In my former life I flew multi million dollar aircraft and found the flight planning aspects to be child’s play compared to route planning an EV trip. I’m retired now and want trips to be relaxing and enjoyable.

Bottom line, if our country wants to push EV’s they need to step up their game now cuss what we have is unacceptable!

 

[gordonf238]

Being in NorCal with chargers located all over, my wife decided to take the MME from Sac to San Fran yesterday. She needed to stop on the way home last night - late night around 1AM. First stop in Vacaville had only 4 fast chargers (no stop on her route had more than 4), and when she showed up none were working.

This continues to baffle me. Gas stations utilize highly flammable fluid, pumps, gauges, sensors, etc. Yet the failure rate of any given gas pump seems far lower than an EV charger, which has practically no moving parts (aside from fans to draw heat away).

I continue to be puzzled at the high failure rate of EV chargers compared to traditional gas pumps. For something that's supposed to be new, with fewer moving pieces, these third-party EV charger providers sure are off to a lousy start.

 

[dbsb3233]

Totally valid points!
In big states travel often it is not easy getting to the chargers. This will improve now that spending will happen to install more chargers.

We charge 90% at home it is only because we have been traveling a lot lately that I noticed again how hard it is to charge up. Gas stations are everywhere. No reason not to leverage this in some way. It's not a perfect solution.
I still find it hard to believe that Large gas stations are still being built today with one just a mile down the road from another Larger gas station.
Who is making money on these? EV charging can't be that large a financial risk over time.

Mostly a product of volume. EVs are up to like 6% of new car sales in the US now, but that's just new. They only make up about 1% of total (new and used) vehicles on the road.

Then factor in the 90% charging at home. So only 10% of 1% of refuels are via DCFC. That works out to 1000:1 ratio of gas refuels vs DCFC refuels. Thus the reason there's way more gas stations. There's 1000x more demand for gas than DCFC still.

 

[MellowJohnny]

No offence to my Mom (in her 80s, university educated, former teacher), but I use her all the time to gauge how close new "technology" is to going mainstream. She's at the point where she's aced the iPhone, but the early transition was a struggle.

No way in hell she'd be ready for 100% BEV ownership if she needed to DCFC. Charge at home for everyday around-town use? No problem. But that's where it would end.

Love ya Mom

 

[dbsb3233]

It really depends on the gas station. I much prefer stopping at a Sheetz or Loves vs. a Walmart for charging.

We like those too. It just depends on what we want to do with that half hour stop. Those often only have just one fast food restaurant choice while a Walmart lot might have 2 or 3 around it. And if we do want to buy something, Walmart has more items and better prices.

But I agree that a Loves is nice too if the restaurant is to our liking and we're not looking to buy goods. Sometimes that's simpler, and closer to the off-ramp and makes for easier in/outs.

I certainly don't have a problem with either choice. As long as the DCFC works.

 

[dbsb3233]

This continues to baffle me. Gas stations utilize highly flammable fluid, pumps, gauges, sensors, etc. Yet the failure rate of any given gas pump seems far lower than an EV charger, which has practically no moving parts (aside from fans to draw heat away).

I continue to be puzzled at the high failure rate of EV chargers compared to traditional gas pumps. For something that's supposed to be new, with fewer moving pieces, these third-party EV charger providers sure are off to a lousy start.

Part of it is that gas pumps have been around and perfected for 100 years. With everything long since standardized. And proven on billions upon billions of vehicles.

DCFC is still quite new, as are the EVs it's going into and interfacing with. It still hasn't fully standardized yet, or gotten the bugs worked out yet. And it's still evolving rapidly. It's also far more complicated that just pumping a liquid into a tank. The power is massive in these things. To put it in perspective, a typical home uses around 30 kWh of power in a 24 hour day. DCFC is pouring an entire day's power for a whole house into our EVs in a mere 15 minutes.

 

[RickMachE]

Totally valid points!
In big states travel often it is not easy getting to the chargers. This will improve now that spending will happen to install more chargers.

We charge 90% at home it is only because we have been traveling a lot lately that I noticed again how hard it is to charge up. Gas stations are everywhere. No reason not to leverage this in some way. It's not a perfect solution.
I still find it hard to believe that Large gas stations are still being built today with one just a mile down the road from another Larger gas station.
Who is making money on these? EV charging can't be that large a financial risk over time.

Take a look at that LARGE gas station, like a Buc-ee's. They make a fortune INSIDE that store. But they also make money on gas. Take a look at the pump number on this one:

 

[RickMachE]

In my former life I flew multi million dollar aircraft and found the flight planning aspects to be child’s play compared to route planning an EV trip. I’m retired now and want trips to be relaxing and enjoyable.

Since you sold it, it's a moot point. But if you were a pilot and planned flying, and you found EV trips harder to plan, then you were doing something wrong.

We're retired, and enjoy tremendously taking our Mach-E on a trip. HOWEVER, that's because I do all the planning. If it was up to my wife, we'd take the ICE F-150 because she's not going to do planning like this.

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