Heating system in Mustang Mach-E ?

[2021mustangdan]

Both the Tesla Model 3 and VW ID4 has heat pump which is better for heating. What system is the Mach-E use?
How much cold testing has been done? In Sudbury, during winter wind chill down to -40 C

Dan

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[CHeil402]

Both the Tesla Model 3 and VW ID4 has heat pump which is better for heating. What system is the Mach-E use?
How much cold testing has been done? In Sudbury, during winter wind chill down to -40 C

Dan

No, the Mach E does not have a heat pump, it uses resistive heating ("E-heat" in the Sync Menu). That being said, the benefits of a heat pump are for moderate climates, not very cold ones. So a heat pump is of no value at -40 C. Ford has done a lot of cold weather testing.

Also, see my more detailed answer on this here: https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/ask-an-electrical-engineer.4307/post-130002

 

[FordFamily]

Can anyone tell me about controls for the rear seat area air vent on the back of the consul? I can't feel any air coming out. I know, the outlet adjustment is the little wheel...

 

[RickMachE]

Must have front vents on, not floor.

 

[hybrid2bev]

Both the Tesla Model 3 and VW ID4 has heat pump which is better for heating. What system is the Mach-E use?
How much cold testing has been done? In Sudbury, during winter wind chill down to -40 C

Dan

Check these out. Several videos on the Mach-E thermal system.

https://www.youtube.com/c/MunroLive/search?query=mach-e thermal

 

[noway]

Tesla has a much better system which can use heat from several sources including electronics, motors and battery which can feed the cold side of the heated pump, meaning it will work even with low ambient temperature. The mach-e has no such thing, its ONLY source for henting is a 5kW resisitive heater. It can not use heat from any other source. In theory it could blend with battery heat after fast charge, but in reality it can't because battery has too low temperature and it woud rather heat the battery if trying. The motors, electronics, AC and battery chiller can only send heat directly to outside air.

The heat pump in Tesla fixes the low temperure issue as it can extract heat from low temperature components and deliver it to high temperature circuits.

Btw . Do not use wind chill temperature, this is something that is calculated for a body heated stationary human. It makes no sense for comparing against cold metal cooling. The wind generated by driving makes much more difference on heat loss through windscreen than natural wind.

 

[RickMachE]

Tesla has a much better system which can use heat from several sources including electronics, motors and battery which can feed the cold side of the heated pump, meaning it will work even with low ambient temperature. The mach-e has no such thing, its ONLY source for henting is a 5kW resisitive heater. It can not use heat from any other source. In theory it could blend with battery heat after fast charge, but in reality it can't because battery has too low temperature and it woud rather heat the battery if trying. The motors, electronics, AC and battery chiller can only send heat directly to outside air.

The heat pump in Tesla fixes the low temperure issue as it can extract heat from low temperature components and deliver it to high temperature circuits.

Btw . Do not use wind chill temperature, this is something that is calculated for a body heated stationary human. It makes no sense for comparing against cold metal cooling. The wind generated by driving makes much more difference on heat loss through windscreen than natural wind.

In fact, in cold weather, the Tesla's heat pump offers no advantage. In milder temps, i.e. 30s and 40s, it does. Consumer Reports showed that there is zero difference.

 

[daverp]

The OP is Canadian, only the Canadian ID.4 has the heat pump. The US ID.4, which my wife has, does not have a heat pump. Interestingly form the highly scientific Youtuber tests on the ID.4 it doesn't make much of any difference.

 

[Keeperofthe7keys]

In fact, in cold weather, the Tesla's heat pump offers no advantage. In milder temps, i.e. 30s and 40s, it does.

I don't know the specifics of heat pump units installed in different cars, but heat pumps can be better than resistive heaters down to about -5F so while in extreme cold it won't, they should definitely give an advantage well below 30F. Though again, I don't know the specifics of units in any given EV model. Could be some have some rather poor heat pumps, I'm going off numbers for air sourced units in houses.

 

[RickMachE]

I don't know the specifics of heat pump units installed in different cars, but heat pumps can be better than resistive heaters down to about -5F so while in extreme cold it won't, they should definitely give an advantage well below 30F. Though again, I don't know the specifics of units in any given EV model. Could be some have some rather poor heat pumps, I'm going off numbers for air sourced units in houses.

Interesting, because the general understanding is that once you get below 30 degrees heat pumps are not helpful.

As you can see from the CR data, heat pumps in Tesla's gave no advantage in cold weather.

 

[Keeperofthe7keys]

Interesting, because the general understanding is that once you get below 30 degrees heat pumps are not helpful.

As you can see from the CR data, heat pumps in Tesla's gave no advantage in cold weather.

Maybe Tesla uses a really cheap unit? I don't honestly know what's typical for cars, can't seem to find good information on them specifically and it could vary wildly by manufacturer. But if heat pumps generally weren't useful below 30F they wouldn't be useful at all. Some units maintain a better COP well into the negatives.

This guy has a pretty good video on them and just how effective they can be But this information is all about house units so maybe there is something I don't know about the limitations of heat pumps that fit into cars?

Some sources https://learnmetrics.com/heat-pump-efficiency-vs-temperature-graph/

https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product_list/

 

[SnBGC]

Heater works great in my Mach-E. It seems very adequate for my needs.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Maybe Tesla uses a really cheap unit? I don't honestly know what's typical for cars, can't seem to find good information on them specifically and it could vary wildly by manufacturer. But if heat pumps generally weren't useful below 30F they wouldn't be useful at all. Some units maintain a better COP well into the negatives.

This guy has a pretty good video on them and just how effective they can be But this information is all about house units so maybe there is something I don't know about the limitations of heat pumps that fit into cars?

Some sources https://learnmetrics.com/heat-pump-efficiency-vs-temperature-graph/

https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product_list/

You're assuming the heat pumps in vehicles are as efficient as minisplit heat pumps which is NOT the case. Due to size/weight constraints a heat pump in a car will not be nearly as efficient as a standalone minisplit heat pump for a building. The crossover point where the COP drops to 1 will vary depending on the heat pump. In a car with a limited coil and compressor size, I would expect it to be around 35ºF. So like Rick said a heat pump is only a benefit if the outside temp is between 35-70ºF, in cold northern climates it's of little use.

 

[Keeperofthe7keys]

You're assuming the heat pumps in vehicles are as efficient as minisplit heat pumps which is NOT the case. Due to size/weight constraints a heat pump in a car will not be nearly as efficient as a standalone minisplit heat pump for a building. The crossover point where the COP drops to 1 will vary depending on the heat pump. In a car with a limited coil and compressor size, I would expect it to be around 35ºF. So like Rick said a heat pump is only a benefit if the outside temp is between 35-70ºF, in cold northern climates it's of little use.

I'm specifically not making that assumption, I'm saying I don't know exactly because I haven't found information on the units typical for cars. But assertions that they reach COP of 1 around 30F is definitely not right because there would be no point in even using one then. That's also completely out of line with data we have of heat pump equipped cars suffering less range loss than non-heat pump cars in temperatures well below that. Or the decision of some automakers to offer heat pumps in those colder northern climates, but not in other markets like the US.

 

[daverp]

I couldn't find the CR article to get the specifics behind their tests. Their results are curious.

What was "cold" and how did they range test. Given they are an US magazine I'll assume the ID.4 was a US market one, which means the only model in that list with a heat pump is the Tesla Model Y. Mach-E, US ID.4, and Ioniq 5 don't have one. Only the AWD Ultimate trim Ioniq 5 have heat pumps and that model doesn't match their EPA range number.

So as a percentage of EPA range, the Tesla lost the most range of any model . Mach-E, and ID.4 lost about 30% range, the Model Y lost 42%.

From everything I've read if range is your primary concern in cold weather you want to keep the cabin heat as low as possible and use the heated seats and steering wheel instead.

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