Oil Pump Failure / Service Vehicle Soon - Facts and Info (P0C2A/P2796/P2797)

[DevSecOps]

Fine to drive ... that's lovely. Your rear drive unit might just detach if it ceases up, but don't worry about that, we have a replacement coming.

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[Howard]

Thanks Todd (and everyone else) for detailed information on oil pump system and this issue.

 

[JVMME]

I got word last week that I am also a causality of an oil pump failure to the front motor. My MME select has been at the dealer since 8/24/23. The replacement motor has been escalated to emergency status thanks to a Forum friend. I also have rental car expenses that are getting out of hand. I did have a representative from the dealership call last week. I foolishly thought it was someone from management trying to help me with the repair process and rental reimbursement. I went to meet him face to face and realized it was a salesman trying to sell me a 2023 GT.

When I dropped off the broken MME on 8/24/23 the sales team quickly made me an offer on the broken one and gave me an offer sheet for a 2023 GT. “You can leave us the Broken one and drive off with a New one today!”

The offer sheet from 8/24/23 had $5000. In discounts. My trade in allowance was $27,500. Milage is 47,566.
Yesterday the new offer sheet had trade allowance at $26,000. And they had the Millage at 48,888. Crazy how they can’t even do accurate paperwork. The dealership has 17 MME on the lot.
I am very concerned that another problem is right around the corner. Has anyone reached out to the BBB on all the mechanical issues?

 

[21st Century Pony]

Preface:

This thread is in regards to DTC P0C2A, P2796, or P2797, which is an oil pump stall. There's been a few reported instances on this forum, Facebook, and Reddit that I've seen. Additionally, I had this failure happen to me, 150mi from home on March 15th, 2023. It appears to be an emerging issue and one that people should be aware of.

What is P0C2A P2796 P2797?

This fault is when the oil pump in the transmission/motor fails, or stalls.

We have an oil pump?

Yes, we do! The oil pump, pumps oil through the motor and transmission step down gears in order to keep them lubricated and cool. Some vehicles such as Rivian, elected to go with a splash oil system where there's no pump and the oil just sloshes around inside of the transmission case. Others, such as Ford and Tesla decided to pressurize that system and push oil through the transmission.

- Side question - We have a transmission?

Yes, but not in the traditional sense of a transmission. The transmission of an electric motor is actually part of the motor assembly. It connects to the side of the motor and is only a couple inches thick on some vehicles and a bit larger on the MME. The step down gears connect to the stator within the electric motor and half shafts to convert the very high RMPs in the motor to the desired RPMs at the wheels.

What happens if we keep driving?

Driving with a failed or stalled oil pump can cause the gears to get damaged or cause overheating in the transmission/motor and could result in a complete replacement of the motor assembly.

How do I know the difference between this and HVBJB failure?

You don't - unless you pull the codes. The HVBJB failure can present itself in the same way as the oil pump failure in the instrument cluster.

How is it fixed?

The entire motor assembly has to be dropped and disassembled. The oil should be checked for metal flaking which could indicate damage to the gears. If no damage is present, the pump (LJ9Z-7P086-A - which ironically can be purchased at Walmart) will be replaced along with the possibility of inner bearings (LJ9Z-7118-D), nuts, bolts, and retainers. They will refill the system with transmission oil. In the cases I've seen where damage has occurred the entire motor assembly was replaced.

How long does it take?

It appears that this repair takes about 2-4 weeks depending on parts.

Failure of the pump aside, do I ever have to replace this oil?

Yes, per the manual you have to replaced the oil in each motor/transmission at 10 years or 150k miles.

What should I do if this happens to me?

I would recommend that you stop driving the vehicle and only drive it in emergencies or to the repair dealership. Immediately call Ford and open a case. If you are stranded call Roadside assistance. The numbers are below:

Ford Roadside (to get towed):

(800) 241-3673

Ford customer support (to get a case started)(only open M-F):

(800) 392-3673 - USA
(800) 565-3673 - Canada

Video explaining the oil system:

My car was just diagnosed with this failure today (per the Service Advisor via telephone, a failure of the "front motor drive unit"). My car has 52.5 thousand miles on the odo.

Much appreciate this explanatory posting... I and the Service Advisor both thought it was the HV Battery contactors, thanks to the car's behavior.

 

[azerik]

Before/when yours was failing did it sound like a bent axle? My right rear area has this electric low pitch 'wom wom wom' sound that gets faster but not higher pitched. When it's not 'wom wom'ing I also don't get the ever slight vibration I feel that are super close if not in time with the noise. I kept chalking it up to a tire or wheel possibly bent but it'll come and go.

 

[21st Century Pony]

Before/when yours was failing did it sound like a bent axle? My right rear area has this electric low pitch 'wom wom wom' sound that gets faster but not higher pitched. When it's not 'wom wom'ing I also don't get the ever slight vibration I feel that are super close if not in time with the noise. I kept chalking it up to a tire or wheel possibly bent but it'll come and go.

No, not at all... no "wom wom" either before or after the SVS + loss of some power + loss of the front motor.

 

[Teslaeata]

Preface:

This thread is in regards to DTC P0C2A, P2796, or P2797, which is an oil pump stall. There's been a few reported instances on this forum, Facebook, and Reddit that I've seen. Additionally, I had this failure happen to me, 150mi from home on March 15th, 2023. It appears to be an emerging issue and one that people should be aware of.

What is P0C2A P2796 P2797?

This fault is when the oil pump in the transmission/motor fails, or stalls.

We have an oil pump?

Yes, we do! The oil pump, pumps oil through the motor and transmission step down gears in order to keep them lubricated and cool. Some vehicles such as Rivian, elected to go with a splash oil system where there's no pump and the oil just sloshes around inside of the transmission case. Others, such as Ford and Tesla decided to pressurize that system and push oil through the transmission.

- Side question - We have a transmission?

Yes, but not in the traditional sense of a transmission. The transmission of an electric motor is actually part of the motor assembly. It connects to the side of the motor and is only a couple inches thick on some vehicles and a bit larger on the MME. The step down gears connect to the stator within the electric motor and half shafts to convert the very high RMPs in the motor to the desired RPMs at the wheels.

What happens if we keep driving?

Driving with a failed or stalled oil pump can cause the gears to get damaged or cause overheating in the transmission/motor and could result in a complete replacement of the motor assembly.

How do I know the difference between this and HVBJB failure?

You don't - unless you pull the codes. The HVBJB failure can present itself in the same way as the oil pump failure in the instrument cluster.

How is it fixed?

The entire motor assembly has to be dropped and disassembled. The oil should be checked for metal flaking which could indicate damage to the gears. If no damage is present, the pump (LJ9Z-7P086-A - which ironically can be purchased at Walmart) will be replaced along with the possibility of inner bearings (LJ9Z-7118-D), nuts, bolts, and retainers. They will refill the system with transmission oil. In the cases I've seen where damage has occurred the entire motor assembly was replaced.

How long does it take?

It appears that this repair takes about 2-4 weeks depending on parts.

Failure of the pump aside, do I ever have to replace this oil?

Yes, per the manual you have to replaced the oil in each motor/transmission at 10 years or 150k miles.

What should I do if this happens to me?

I would recommend that you stop driving the vehicle and only drive it in emergencies or to the repair dealership. Immediately call Ford and open a case. If you are stranded call Roadside assistance. The numbers are below:

Ford Roadside (to get towed):

(800) 241-3673

Ford customer support (to get a case started)(only open M-F):

(800) 392-3673 - USA
(800) 565-3673 - Canada

Video explaining the oil system:

Great write up thnx ?

 

[21st Century Pony]

My car was just diagnosed with this failure today (per the Service Advisor via telephone, a failure of the "front motor drive unit"). My car has 52.5 thousand miles on the odo.

Much appreciate this explanatory posting... I and the Service Advisor both thought it was the HV Battery contactors, thanks to the car's behavior.

So a follow-up bit of info... today I went to the dealership and talked with both the service advisor and the EV tech. My car has a COPIS case opened (by them) and a front motor which needs to be completely replaced, under warranty. They expect the new front motor in early next week, and the car to be repaired by Friday next week.

The EV tech showed me a pic he snapped of the front motor's electric connector to the HV battery (the motor connector on teardown videos which plugs up with the big fat orange cord which then connects to the HV battery). Fluid internal to the motor (by inference, the cooling oil) was visibly leaking from amongst all the connector pins on the motor side when the tech pulled off the big orange cord and continued to leak thru the uncoupled motor connector when he snapped his picture.

Visibly, a major seal / sealing compound barrier had failed inside the motor. This in the EV Tech's opinion had generated the dozen+ orange alert and SVS messages on the IPC while my car simultaneously lost power to the front motor last week.

No analysis yet on why the internal seal(s) had failed... heat buildup? ...internal oil pump failure? ...something else?

As I am getting an entire new front motor, I asked the EV Tech and SA to also drain and replace the rear motor's internal oil, at my cost. This way, the oil drain & replace future actions will remain synchronized, and (my fervent hope) whatever had caused the front motor system to go BLOOOEY... perhaps our driving?? may be mitigated before the rear motor also goes out to lunch.

Ford Corporate is compensating the dealership for a loaner Ford Escape for me until this is fixed.

The dealership told me this type of failure in the Mach E is, to their experience, "not unprecedented but very rare so far".

 

[JVMME]

Glad to hear it worked out for you. I also had the front motor replaced, it took 44 days to get the car back. I did report the failure to NTSB.

Unfortunately I never received a reimbursement for the rental car. I had reached out to my @Ford Motor Company rep serval times to get some sort of reimbursement for the rental. But nothing, no response.

I am still amazed that no loaners in 44 days.

I purchase 8 Ford vehicles over the years. I am very disappointed in the customer service on this purchase. I am really disappointed in Dealer network.

When I received the dealer survey I asked for someone to call me. No response either. The only help I received was a forum member who I believe is part of the Ford team. I am very grateful for help. I really enjoy the MME experience. I hope that Ford can fix the broken Dealer Network. This will be my last Ford. Sorry for the rant.

 

[macchiaz-o]

As I am getting an entire new front motor, I asked the EV Tech and SA to also drain and replace the rear motor's internal oil, at my cost. This way, the oil drain & replace future actions will remain synchronized

Sorry for the hassle you're going through.

The sentence I quoted is interesting to me... I thought the non-GT front motor did not use an oil pump or filter. Maybe someone with access to the service manuals or your own technician can verify?

If I'm right, any oil in it was factory installed and never meant to be replaced again -- it isn't meant to be serviced to that degree. At least, that was my impression from early reports I read in 2020 or 2021.

The rear motor definitely does have oil, along with a maintenance schedule.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Sorry for the hassle you're going through.

The sentence I quoted is interesting to me... I thought the non-GT front motor did not use an oil pump or filter. Maybe someone with access to the service manuals or your own technician can verify?

If I'm right, any oil in it was factory installed and never meant to be replaced again -- it isn't meant to be serviced to that degree. At least, that was my impression from early reports I read in 2020 or 2021.

The rear motor definitely does have oil, along with a maintenance schedule.

Front motor in base AWD has 75W-85 gear oil and a stator water jacket. No oil pump or heat exchanger like the rear motor, so technically Martin's failure does not belong in this P0C2A/P2796/P2797 topic because it's not an oil pump failure. Something else happened akin to mechanical gear failure.

Drive unit oil change is specified at 10 years, 150k, but I would do it much sooner. Probably every 50k. Drain and fill like a transmission or differential.

 

[21st Century Pony]

Sorry for the hassle you're going through.

The sentence I quoted is interesting to me... I thought the non-GT front motor did not use an oil pump or filter. Maybe someone with access to the service manuals or your own technician can verify?

If I'm right, any oil in it was factory installed and never meant to be replaced again -- it isn't meant to be serviced to that degree. At least, that was my impression from early reports I read in 2020 or 2021.

The rear motor definitely does have oil, along with a maintenance schedule.

Hmmm... O.K. I'll make inquiries.

The Service Advisor and the EV Tech and I are on good terms.

 

[JohnFoxeSheets]

Glad to hear it worked out for you. I also had the front motor replaced, it took 44 days to get the car back. I did report the failure to NTSB.

Unfortunately I never received a reimbursement for the rental car. I had reached out to my @Ford Motor Company rep serval times to get some sort of reimbursement for the rental. But nothing, no response.

I am still amazed that no loaners in 44 days.

I purchase 8 Ford vehicles over the years. I am very disappointed in the customer service on this purchase. I am really disappointed in Dealer network.

When I received the dealer survey I asked for someone to call me. No response either. The only help I received was a forum member who I believe is part of the Ford team. I am very grateful for help. I really enjoy the MME experience. I hope that Ford can fix the broken Dealer Network. This will be my last Ford. Sorry for the rant.

I presume you did so, but since you didn't mention it, I'll ask: did you call the Ford Customer Service BEV team at ‭(833) 926-3287‬? They should hopefully be able to get your car rental reimbursed.

 

[21st Century Pony]

Sorry for the hassle you're going through.

The sentence I quoted is interesting to me... I thought the non-GT front motor did not use an oil pump or filter. Maybe someone with access to the service manuals or your own technician can verify?

If I'm right, any oil in it was factory installed and never meant to be replaced again -- it isn't meant to be serviced to that degree. At least, that was my impression from early reports I read in 2020 or 2021.

The rear motor definitely does have oil, along with a maintenance schedule.

So my new front motor came in. The Service Advisor, the EV tech and I looked at the two motors together while the tech crew was unbolting the front motor and all the incidental stuff all around it under the frunk.

I verified with the EV Tech and also separately in the Mach E manual that, indeed, Premium extended battery AWD front motors don't have the oil pump and internal oil filter and the external oil cooler like the GT front motors do.

Now that my front motor heat-melted its internal seals (at least, afaik) I kind of wish that it did have that oil heat sink cooler loop and the internal oil pump. I wonder whether it's possible to "upgrade" my new front motor with the oil cooling stuff, albeit not right now haha. My type of failure seems to be a very rare one.

Somewhere about a year ago, maybe in a Munro or Weber youtube video, I faintly remember hearing that the front motor is basically a GT front motor without the fancy parts. Or something similar.

Of course, adding an oil cooling loop even if it's mechanically bolt-on easy might also necessitate adding an oil heat sensor, and potentially a signal of some sort from a controlling module to "cool the oil now". Any comments and clarifications are welcome... again, I'm just musing on a concept and it might not even be doable.

 

[macchiaz-o]

I faintly remember hearing that the front motor is basically a GT front motor without the fancy parts. Or something similar.

I think the only thing they have in common is being three phase AC permanent magnet motors... The front non-GT motor is significantly smaller than the rear one, running at lower power and perhaps less stress.

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