Future Mach-E buyers, please note…

[DevSecOps]

Was Tesla getting a fed tax credit in 2022 (I can’t keep up). If not the numbers are pretty close. The mach e is a little overpriced to me, that would affect resale value. The tesla fanboys/girls keep the resale value higher, the ford fanboys/girls don’t have that much pull. Even though you can’t buy parts or basically repair anything on your Tesla yourself, the misconception that Tesla is a battery vehicle still remains.

I don't know but if you run the same numbers for a 2023, it's the same situation. Throughout this thread there's a number of links to articles where resale values have been researched. Regardless of the reason why, the numbers are the numbers, fanboys or not it really doesn't matter.

Average retention of value @ 5 years for just EVs:

Hummer EV - 53.6%
Rivian - 53.4%
Tesla MY - 53.3%
Tesla M3 - 51.8%
Mini - 50.2%
Smart - 49.8%
Tesla MS - 47.7%
Porsche Taycan - 47.7%
Honda - 46.2%
Chevy Bolt - 42.5%
VW - 41.8%
Hyundai - 41.2%
Kia - 40.7%
Ford MME - 40.3%

The only things worse than a MME are Polestar, Mercedes, Audi and Lucid.

Sponsored

 

[azerik]

But, white... WTH

When I bought my FFE's I waited till they were 3 years old. Picked them up for sub $10k (when msrp was $42k). I figured EV's were far enough along that they wouldn't still drop like a rock the secnd they got close to 30k on the clock. But 10 years later and it still holds true. If you like/love the car you keep it, if you don't you might never make that 'mistake' again. With the MME and the carnival ride of 22~23 'values' it was a crap shoot to not lose a good amount of depreciation that should have happened 2 years ago.

 

[Motomax]

I don't know but if you run the same numbers for a 2023, it's the same situation. Throughout this thread there's a number of links to articles where resale values have been researched. Regardless of the reason why, the numbers are the numbers, fanboys or not it really doesn't matter.

Average retention of value @ 5 years for just EVs:

Hummer EV - 53.6%
Rivian - 53.4%
Tesla MY - 53.3%
Tesla M3 - 51.8%
Mini - 50.2%
Smart - 49.8%
Tesla MS - 47.7%
Porsche Taycan - 47.7%
Honda - 46.2%
Chevy Bolt - 42.5%
VW - 41.8%
Hyundai - 41.2%
Kia - 40.7%
Ford MME - 40.3%

The only things worse than a MME are Polestar, Mercedes, Audi and Lucid.

I wonder if being ranked near the bottom for reliability has anything to do with it (even though those rankings are pretty much all made up).

 

[awp0]

I'm not sure I'd give it back in your scenario. I'd probably make the final payment and keep driving this car another 3-6 years instead of sinking a lot more money into another fast depreciating asset. This is my only vehicle, not a spare that I can just give up without replacement.

It's gonna be really unlikely for the Return option on my Ford Options contract to be my choice. When all costs are factored in, this 3 year Options contract is costing me a bit more ($283 to be precise) than if I'd have chosen the 0.9%, 48-month standard loan option that was also offered. I only went this route because the increased cost was such a small amount. Because the way I look at it, for me to Return the car to Ford at the end of Options, ALL of these conditions must be met at around month 35:

1. I'd be unhappy with the vehicle near the 3 year point,
2. AND, a suitable replacement car is ready for me to buy at that same time,
3. AND, the market value is significantly below the balloon amount.*

I've still got 3 months left on the loan. So far only qualifier #2 is realized.

* My payment for month 36 is $20,855. The current Carvana value is $30,049 (32k miles), and I've got a grandfathered state vehicle tax registration discount worth about $700/year, so we're not even close to hitting condition #3 yet.

Thanks. I think your analysis makes a lot of sense, and of course the considerations are more complex than I described. I'm only about halfway through my 3-year Ford Options term, and I believe my balloon payment is larger than yours so there's a decent chance that my value will be under the balloon number. Will I still like the car enough to keep it? I'm not sure. The 3-year Ford Options term happens to also be when Ford will start charging for some of the subscriptions (like HFBC) on my car. Battery SOH might be another factor that I'll pay attention to, and of course it'll be interesting to see how the MME stands up to newly released vehicles at that time. By then maybe we'll also have a better idea of how long Ford will continue to deliver software updates to these older MME's.

 

[CalGal]

…that today, I was offered $23,000 for a car that cost me almost $51,000 cash about 5 months ago. It is a 2021 - Job 2 - Mach E GT Performance Edition - 10k miles - no deletions, super low miles, amazing condition inside out.

Plenty of threads about other quirks about the car, decent but not great MMI, slow “fast” charging speeds, HVBJB thermal issues, not great charging infrastructure, lack of skilled service centers. Not going to go into details.

And yet, we love the way the car drives. We love the power (I do not care one bit about the 5 second boost cap). We love how it looks. We love the attention from strangers coming up to us and asking questions about it.

Anyway, do what you want with this information. I wasn’t even trying to sell a car I haven’t even owned a year. It’s just an offer. But it was kind of shocking.

Cheers. Stay warm.

You don‘t say where this “offer“ came from. But dealers always lowball when quoting a trade-in or outright purchase offer. Don’t assume that is the actual value. Check out Kelly Blue Book wholesale, private party and retail values for your car also.

 

[iahgva]

Thank you for your kind words. Take a look at what I own today though, after having owned a Tesla before.

And then perhaps may I suggest something? Do try and work on your overly sensitive self to be able accept others’ opinions without needing to call them names or mocking them for expressing a mere opinion. It helped me LOL so it can help even someone like you.

Or don’t. Who cares?

Have a blessed day.

- Troll.

not going to call you a troll, but you are either antagonistic on demand or you flip flop opinion on a whim… quoting you recently “I still strongly advise first time buyers to start with a Tesla. MME is a better “car” though ” so is Tesla better across the board or is MME a better car ? Same person, opposite opinion….

i got another one of your flip flip…you went from “Absence of wireless CarPlay is another annoyance” to “All features carried over except wireless CarPlay which I couldn’t care less about.”

I would not really care, but before buying my MME I was slated to take ownership of a MY in June and on the same week switched last minute to MME. I then drove a rented Tesla in Germany for 2 weeks to be able to really compare, and after that experience could not even comprehend how one would prefer the Tesla experience (outside of the charging network) to the driving experience of MME. So I suspect people saying Tesla is better of never having tried MME. But it is not your case. You drove both, and you tend to be very happy about your MME everywhere but in this forum… care to explain how and why you can go from “Tesla is better across the board” to “MME is a better car” in the same week?

Troll is not something I can judge, but your credibility is a bit at stake…

 

[RWG]

Well,

Here is my analysis about owning a Mach E for 22k miles in the frozen north of Minnesota. ( Minneapolis/St.Paul metro area.)

The purchasing/dealer experience:

We originally ordered the car in may of 2021, right in the middle of the "post pandemic" global chaos. Supply Chain issues slowed down production, delays at every turn, and the usual new product start up issues at the Ford Dealer, i.e. they did not understand the technology and the way Ford interacted with its dealers had totally changed, or was in transition. All of this just made the purchasing experience more frustrating.

We ordered it in May 2021 and it was delivered in January 2022. Other unusual experiences were it was the first time in my 50+ years of buying a car that I ever paid MSRP price, ordered it online, down payment with a credit card. ( For a "boomer" that was a cultural shock.)

During the waiting period I checked with the dealer a few times for updates. Unfortunately, they knew "nothing" and each time directed me to Ford customer service in Detroit. This behavior was again, culture shock, for this Boomer that was used to calling a dealer for answers. ( In the past, if I would have received service like that from any dealer, I would have walked on the deal, cancelled the order and insulted/scolded the dealer management. However, it appeared everyone was being treated the same. So I just shrugged my shoulders and dealt with it and lowered my expectations.)


Cost of driving:

We paid $57,350, AWD with Extended battery range, less with the trade in or our Infinity QX30. ( I was pleasantly surprised in the trade value of the Infinity, but at the time, trade values were insanely high, due to the shortage of new cars, etc. For the dealer, it was a great opportunity for the dealer, a luxury AWD SUV, 3 years old, less than 40k miles, mint condition. )

I have read lots of biased "drama" articles about EVs. I read one recently that claimed EVs are costing society the equivalent of $17 per gallon. I view articles like that is pure hyperbole marketing or politically biased BS.( "Figures don't lie, but liars figure.")

Here are the simple cost facts, based on our experience/ownership so far.

QX30 - At 22,000 miles, if we had kept the QX30 @ 22 MPG we would have spent about $3500 on 1,000 gallons of gasoline. Average $3.50 per gallon.

Mach E - At 22,000 miles, with an average of 3 miles per kilowatt we would have used about 733 kilo watts. At KW cost us about 15 cents. So the energy driving cost was about $1,100.

Cost per mile summary:

Fuel Costs: the QX would have cost us $3,500 or 16 cents per mile and the Mach E cost was about 5 cents per mile. The total 22,000 mile difference was $2,400. (Admittedly I did not add in the cost of a couple of oil changes. That would have been maybe another $150.)

However, there was a personal "infrastructure cost" we had to endure for the Mach E. i.e. I had to install a 50Amp 220v circuit and battery charging system. Since I did it myself, the cost was approx. $1000, for the 50ft of 6 ga wire, circuit breaker, electrical conduit and components, etc. I estimate that if I had hired an electrician, the cost would have been approximately $2000. If I add the cost of the charging infrastructure to my cost per mile, the cost changes from 5 cents per mile to approximately 10 cents per mile. ( @22,000 miles) Of course that cost per mile continues to drop as miles driven increases and there are no charger system failures. ( Also, I am fully aware there are much cheaper charger systems available. At the time I chose to buy the more expensive Ford OEM system. I was concerned that aftermarket options could pose potential problems and I wanted to cover all possible warranty contingencies by staying 100% Ford.)

Ownership behavioral compromises:

For us, 2 retired people, this vehicle meets our needs to run around town and to take occasional trips to Wisconsin to visit relatives. It's 90 miles, one way, so those trips meet the anemic battery range and just about every relative we have has a 220v plug in their garage or shed so we have a built in charging back up infrastructure if needed. However, we do NOT ever take it on long trips that require remote charging. The infrastructure is just not there. So in over 18 months of ownership this vehicle has only been on a DC Fast charger twice, and that was just an experience experiment. All of the rest of the time it is plugged in, in my temp controlled garage, usually when we get down to 50% SOC or less. That means our Mach E has plugged in about 100 to 150 times, in 18 months, charges to 85% at a max rate of 35amps. I purposely limit the charging rates to prevent excessive heat, which is not good for lithium ion battery life.

This is technically my wife's car and it fits her needs well. i.e. she drives around town, plugs it in at home at night and it is always ready to go the next day. Plus now she never needs to stop at a gas station, except an occasional convenience store to get milk, bread, and eggs.

I do worry about the contactor issues and pending recall. When they fail, the vehicle becomes a "brick" and you are screwed. However, I think our risks are low, we do not max out acceleration or put stress on the system like others, but the risk is still there. As soon as our dealer gets the parts it will be taken in for the recall.

If I were to try to calculate true cost of ownership, then I would have to add trade value to the equation, which I don't know yet. And to be fair, I would have to add the $7500 income tax credit. If I put the tax credit in my current equation, the cost per mile would be "negative". That would make a good bar bragging discussion, but in reality, at this point, it is kinda BS.

Conclusion:

EVs are not for everyone, those of us who jumped in early are probably in for a financial surprise, i.e. residual value disappointments etc. For folks like us, with disposable income, and limited metropolitan driving needs, they can be great and it is.

We did not buy this thing to save money on gas or save the planet. We bought if because we could, knowing all the financial risks, and we wanted to experience the EV revolution.

We have been in this place before, back in the 80's we bought an Oldsmobile with the 350 ICE that GM converted to diesel, in response to the rising gasoline cost crisis at the time. That 350 diesel engine was a market disaster for GM and its customers. When I traded that vehicle what I got was nearly "scrap" value. The car was wonderful, I had cured most of the reliability issues, but the market was afraid of that 350 diesel engine. As EV battery technology evolves, the risks are the same for Mach E owners, maybe. Time will tell and we shall see. However, the announcement of solid state battery technology with double the range is going to make things interesting for Ford and the owners of legacy EV's with half the range.

Quality/Design - Customer Experience:

Overall, it appears our experience was just like everyone else, but there is plenty of room for improvement.

• Buying experience was poor, the dealer and Ford get a "D -" grade.
• Design quality/strategy - In this area Ford is dismal: It appears they rushed the development to bring it to market and made some heinous design compromises. In addition, they depended too much on vendors to design components/systems. Now they have a product management mess every time they have to address problems. Tesla is vertically integrated and therefore more nimble. They have problems too, but they are not as big and lethargic. As such they appear to move much faster.
• What idiot decided to build in a glass roof that leaks heat like a sieve in cold weather? When it gets cold here, over 25% of the battery energy is consummed to heat the cabin in the winter.
• Furthermore, what genius decided to put maintenance prone electrical contactors in the battery pack? Every electrician or electrical engineer should know that NOBODY has ever built a contactor that will last forever. That is design error is the equivalent to building a vehicle where you have to remove the fenders to change tires. All of the marketing hype about "maintenance free" is pure BS if you ever have to change those contactors out of warranty, 8 years or 100k. The cost of dropping that battery pack and replacing contactors is currently over $2000. That does not fit my definition of maintenance free.
• You cannot pull/tow this car out of a nose in first snowbank incident. There are no safe tow points on the back end of this car. Really? Did someone think drivers would only slip off the road and get hung up in the snow, back in first?
• HVAC is NOT a heat pump. It is traditional AC and heater elements only. Every junior HVAC engineer on the planet knows that a Heat Pump is more efficient at heating than electric heater elements. But Ford did it the old fashioned way and it negatively impacts battery range.
• Ford Pass - While the car has had a few software updates, the Ford Pass system has had literally dozens and has been the most disappointing ownership experience. It's overall performance has been a cruel joke. The new current map set up is an example of the design flaws. When you look at the map, it now defaults to a view of where you are not the car. So if the vehicle is out and about, and you want to see where the vehicle is you have to manually slide the view with your finger to find the vehicle. That is like reading a newspaper through a keyhole. There should be a "button" that defaults the view to the vehicle location. I am sure it will eventually get resolved. It's just another software update added to the never ending list. . . . .

Conclusion:

Overall our ownership experience has been just fine. We shrugged off the design and customer experience disappointments, we have never experienced any major difficulties, so with our general usage routine, owning the Mach E has been good, actually stellar. However, we do not intend on keeping it much longer. We wish the Solid State battery alternatives were available now. We would trade the Mach E immediately but alas nothing is coming out until 2026 and that is a bit too long to wait. So our short term options are limited. . . . .

When the solid state battery with twice the range products hit the market we would definitely consider buying another EV. Unfortunately, when we finally move the the next vehicle, EV or something else. Mostly likely my FORD OEM charging station will end up in the dumpster. I doubt if it would be compatible with solid state batteries or a different brand vehicle.

 

[Triggerhappy007]

Was Tesla getting a fed tax credit in 2022 (I can’t keep up). If not the numbers are pretty close. The mach e is a little overpriced to me, that would affect resale value. The tesla fanboys/girls keep the resale value higher, the ford fanboys/girls don’t have that much pull. Even though you can’t buy parts or basically repair anything on your Tesla yourself, the misconception that Tesla is a battery vehicle still remains.

No, no tax credit for Tesla in 2022. They reduced the price of their 2023s a lot plus it's eligible for a $7500 tax credit in 2023. So their owners are unhappy too if they bought last year and need to sell this year.

 

[stealthytolkien]

not going to call you a troll, but you are either antagonistic on demand or you flip flop opinion on a whim… quoting you recently “I still strongly advise first time buyers to start with a Tesla. MME is a better “car” though ” so is Tesla better across the board or is MME a better car ? Same person, opposite opinion….

i got another one of your flip flip…you went from “Absence of wireless CarPlay is another annoyance” to “All features carried over except wireless CarPlay which I couldn’t care less about.”

I would not really care, but before buying my MME I was slated to take ownership of a MY in June and on the same week switched last minute to MME. I then drove a rented Tesla in Germany for 2 weeks to be able to really compare, and after that experience could not even comprehend how one would prefer the Tesla experience (outside of the charging network) to the driving experience of MME. So I suspect people saying Tesla is better of never having tried MME. But it is not your case. You drove both, and you tend to be very happy about your MME everywhere but in this forum… care to explain how and why you can go from “Tesla is better across the board” to “MME is a better car” in the same week?

Troll is not something I can judge, but your credibility is a bit at stake…

Credibility? With all due respect -
Opinions don’t have credibility. Medical diagnosis, critical wartime information, engineering designs do.

Impressive research digging through my internet history though. It’s refreshing to see people who have attention for detail.

First of all, with all due respect, thank you for your post.

Second of all, I again respectfully say that perhaps you missed the context, before you quoted me like you did along with putting labels on me (flip flop, antagonist on demand and what not). I don’t mind it, at all, but it would have been nice to just stick to the message. Rest assured that I am going to do just that. Not going to call you any names or esoteric labels.

Let’s begin shall we?

I don’t think my stance has changed greatly. But as a human, I’m sure I’ve said contradictory things before, so, since you asked, let’s reevaluate.

Let us take the first quote.

I’ve said time and time again that Tesla is a better “EV” but MME is a better “car”.

But perhaps you didn’t seem to catch that context when you quoted me.

I still firmly hold to that belief and opinion. In that context, I have stated on this forum that Tesla is better (AT BEING AN “EV”) across the board than MME. Reason for this distinction is that Tesla lacks many “car” like features that MME has. MME as a car rides better in my opinion.

On the “flip” side (no PUN intended), the MME has some distance to cover to be a better EV. These are things like a good Ford charging network, a good ford EV service network, a good battery thermals management system, and a couple of other things related to charging speeds, MMI, etc. That is all I am saying really.

So, I am still saying that owning an EV may be a bit easier if you have a Tesla as a first time buyer. It is a low risk EV ownership. Cost of entry is lower as Teslas run a bit cheaper to buy. Hold their value slightly better given their high demand. Don’t have to worry about some early adoption blues as it’s almost a decade old brand now, etc.

Do you see my point now? Tesla is a better “EV” but MME is a better “car” that happens to be electric.

Second point I quoted - Wireless CarPlay? Again. Perhaps you are missing the context. The wireless CarPlay I’m talking about was likely for the Lexus!

That trim supports wired CarPlay.

And if you’ve spent a minute inside an old Lexus, you’ll know how bad their base MMI is.

In THAT car, I do need a CarPlay. And I was talking how not having wireless CarPlay can be a bit annoying.

For Tesla / MME, I rarely use CarPlay because their base MMI are decent.

Please free to correct me if I’m misremembering this since you’ve got a hold of my life history on the internet.

Thank you.

DISCLAIMER: None of what I said should be treated as credible information. I am often found spitballing here while playing a game of FIFA on the side, working, or both. Credibility is the last thing on my mind. If anything, this forum is sheer entertainment for me.

 

[RickMachE]

I keep reading that you can't take these on trips, guess I should stop doing that. And someone tell @dbsb3233 and @ChasingCoral...

 

[Blue highway]

I don't know but if you run the same numbers for a 2023, it's the same situation. Throughout this thread there's a number of links to articles where resale values have been researched. Regardless of the reason why, the numbers are the numbers, fanboys or not it really doesn't matter.

Average retention of value @ 5 years for just EVs:

Hummer EV - 53.6%
Rivian - 53.4%
Tesla MY - 53.3%
Tesla M3 - 51.8%
Mini - 50.2%
Smart - 49.8%
Tesla MS - 47.7%
Porsche Taycan - 47.7%
Honda - 46.2%
Chevy Bolt - 42.5%
VW - 41.8%
Hyundai - 41.2%
Kia - 40.7%
Ford MME - 40.3%

The only things worse than a MME are Polestar, Mercedes, Audi and Lucid.

According to Kelley Blue Book, the average new vehicle will retain only about 45% of its original value after a typical five-year ownership period. Some EVs are more and some are less on the list above assuming apples to apples.... But let's not forget that 5 year values for cars that have not been on the market for 5 years is a bit of a projection at best.

Hummer - no
Rivian - no
MY - no
M3 - yes
mini - no
smart - yes
MS - yes
Taycan - no
Honda - no
Bolt - yes
VW - no
Hyundai - no
Kia - no
MME - no

these are not on the list above, but depreciate like rocks...
BMW i3
Nissan Leaf

In the world of used cars, the EV segment depreciates the most, but it's not that different than "average" to me... if the MME is 4.7% worse than average... meh?

I wonder if the depreciation curve will flatten in coming years as Tesla runs out of room to cut prices further... and if government subsidies are rolled back. we will see.

 

[DevSecOps]

But let's not forget that 5 year values for cars that have not been on the market for 5 years is a bit of a projection at best.

You don't have to project out 5 years. You can do the actual comparison from 2021, 2022 or 2023 and see that the MachE still has a worse resale value than most other EVs.

The reason I'm so confident about this is because I just sold my MME and I just purchased a M3P. I looked at the used pricing of multiple M3Ps and they were only 2k less than a new vehicle. I sold my 2 year old MME for 38k less than I purchased it.

 

[BigMach-E]

Yeah, if you aren’t planning on keeping the car for the long term, I wouldn’t buy an MME.

Again, all this stuff only matters if you are selling, but it is a huge disappointment to have the resale value go down 20-30k in the matter of less that a year of ownership, regardless of if you ever intend to sell.

 

[ARK]

Mostly based on discussions on this forum, I’ve periodically had my vehicle quoted online by Driveway for trade-in value. Looking through my emails from them, here are the figures:

February 2021: $51,440 MSRP
April 2022: $57,324
October 2022: $49,452
January 2023: $43,798
July 2023: $34,219
August 2023: $30,930
November 2023: $25,248

Highest Driveway offer: April 2022 at $57,324 (111% of MSRP) at month 14 of ownership (probably around 6,400 miles).

Lowest Driveway offer: November 2023 at $25,248 (49% of MSRP, 44% of the high watermark, drop of $32,076 in about a year and a half) at year 2 month 9 of ownership (15,600 miles).

The last four months in particular have been a bloodbath.

 

[Tha_Ape]

Was Tesla getting a fed tax credit in 2022 (I can’t keep up). If not the numbers are pretty close. The mach e is a little overpriced to me, that would affect resale value. The tesla fanboys/girls keep the resale value higher, the ford fanboys/girls don’t have that much pull. Even though you can’t buy parts or basically repair anything on your Tesla yourself, the misconception that Tesla is a battery vehicle still remains.

That's not true though. In fact it's quite the opposite. Tesla has ALL of their factory service manuals online, for FREE. I've never known a single manufacturer to give that out for free.

There is also an extensive "service mode" (freely accessible by the owner) that constantly gets updates/improvements. Tesla doesn't want to be in the car repair business. Skim the video to get the idea.





Nothing to add on anything else... just wanted to correct that misconception

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