On the Fence after watching Mach E's thermal system nightmare

[Ghost Ryder]

I've mentioned how my insurance went from $200 per month to $280 after buying this MME. We installed Big Brother from Allstate (Drive Wise) to cut the cost. So, zoomie, zoomie isn't an option.

No quick acceleration. No hard stops. No phone use. No being out between 11 pm and 4 am. Allstate's rules...

You really should check out Costco insurance (Connect). I found that they are the cheapest around. Cost us 100$/month for 500k of coverage. They have been really responsive when we had a claim.

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[dbsb3233]

Math has never been my strong point, but is there a 30% difference in these numbers?
Standard Range (Usable Battery
Capacity 72kh)Extended Range (Usable Battery
Capacity 91kWh)

91 / 72 = 1.26, which means 26% extra. My point about it being at the top end meant that we always try to leave some at the bottom for safety when driving (regardless of which battery) when planning DCFC stops. Let's say we want to save about a 50 mile buffer to feel comfortable. That's roughly 17 kWh. Subtract that from both numbers, making it 74 / 55 = 1.34 (34% extra practical range).

 

[GreaseMonkey]

I'd disagree with that statement hugely. Most people don't know what depreciation is, nor how to calculate total cost of ownership. Most people buy vehicles based on EMOTION. Most people get in front of the salesperson and finance person and lose all track of numbers and buy all sorts of add-ons.

This forum isn't comprised of most people.

I don’t agree with that premise at all. They might not be doing the math to the last penny, but they would be using proxies like monthly payments and auto company’s reputation (durability, maintenance, etc) to approximate cost of ownership. If they base their decisions solely on emotions, Toyota would be selling exactly zero cars vs being the largest automaker in the world.

 

[MellowJohnny]

Back to the original question - yes, I'd but it again. I watched that video after I bought the car and thought, yeah, Sandy has a point from a pure engineering perspective. Ford's original design could have been more cost efficient, less complex, and taken a few pounds out of the build. It's also easy to play armchair quarterback - the followup video interview w/ Donna Dickson goes into some of the choices they made, and why:



Only change I'd make is to get the LR battery, but as I've said before, at the time it was CAD $8,000 extra, and I'd lose my $5k tax credit, so a $13k swing. I'll take extra charging stops over an extra $13,000 any day of the week. Took four road trips last year, but I'm still happy with the SR decision

 

[timbop]

Where we are in this conversation is we have your opinion, and we have the numbers from Ford themselves. I'm choosing to go with their information.

Fair enough. I get that's you're enthused about your new car. However, I suggest that the numbers arrived at in the lab are less important than actual on-the-road testing: https://insideevs.com/reviews/520484/mustang-mach-e-range-test/

You might also want to do research into such topics as to how EPA compliant lab tests work and how they correlate to actual range - especially Tesla's 5 cycle testing. You may find the results illuminating.

 

[RickMachE]

Not an engineer, don't play one on TV. As was just pointed out, Ford used previously successful systems to beat everyone to market. That was the overriding focus - get these vehicles to market with proven technology. They did that. You don't spend time reducing 4 pumps to 2 pumps and miss that.

 

[Auto Motive]

I'm ready to pull the trigger on a 23 Mach E Premium with extended range battery, but I just watch Sandy Munro's comparison of the Mach E's thermal system nightmare vs, the Model Y. In addition I am concerned about downtime with HVBJB and other issues. Is this all blown out of proportion? Would you buy another Mach E knowing what you know now? Thanks in advance

Yes on our GTPE even at the substantial price over the y performance. I don't race it but at times a red lite to red lite race is hilarious against ice muscle. Many stop s

I'm ready to pull the trigger on a 23 Mach E Premium with extended range battery, but I just watch Sandy Munro's comparison of the Mach E's thermal system nightmare vs, the Model Y. In addition I am concerned about downtime with HVBJB and other issues. Is this all blown out of proportion? Would you buy another knowing what you know now? Thanks in advance

I wouldn’t be too quick to jump to this conclusion. I also wouldn’t base my car buying decision based on a poser CEO.

Tesla is an incredible (first) EV. It’s just easy to own. Easy to service. Easy to road trip with. Their MMI is fantastic. Charging network is almost flawless. No major thermal issues. It’s got a heat pump so it fares better in harsh winters. And the build quality has come a long way since 2017-2018 days. MME will be a dead investment the day you buy it. Tesla (newer ones) will hold value somewhat better given the demand. However there are a couple of basic security features that Tesla lacks. Rear cross traffic alert is one. Blind sport monitoring is another. The vision system is not great but not the worst.

Tesla Range should be taken with a grain of salt. A 330 mile car in summers will go about 260 miles and in winters it will be about 200. MachE isn’t any better except that it advertises the range far more conservatively.

Non Tesla network is still below average and cannot be relied upon for critical road trips, so is it better to have slightly less range but far superior charging network or have a little more range but far inferior charging network?

Decision is solely yours. If I could go back in time knowing what I know today, I am not so sure if I would have bought a Ford EV. I have the top shelf one and our entire household loves it. Don’t get me wrong. All I’m saying is that I’d have saved $10k and gotten a Y if I could do this all over again.

I purchased a month ago today, no regrets.
I went to a dealer ev event not even thinking I would like the ford, just wanted to compare with some other vehicles.

I had just been on a work trip and was in a 2023 model 3 and model y for some long Ubers and I wasn’t impressed. Definitely not good enough to get me to want to spend with Elon.

The Mach e will have access to the Tesla charging network at some point next year, so when that happens I can utilize that for charging on road trips. Wanting access to the Tesla network but not wanting a Tesla was a real big sticking point for me not getting a BEV. I had 2 different PHEVs before. Prius prime top trim, looked at a model X when I got that car and it didn’t seem nice enough for the cost, and a wrangler 4XE Sahara a few year later, again looked at the model X and also the model Y and they just didn’t seem nice enough to warrant the price. Traded wrangler for the Mach e.

The fit and finish are great. I got a premium awd extended range battery. Everything seems super solid.
I live in Iowa, where it is already cold, no complaints.

If you’re concerned about resale just lease it, otherwise just enjoy the car. It isn’t an investment, it’s a depreciating asset.

I have a garage that I can charge in, so keeping it at 80% other than for long trips isn’t a big deal, I work from home so I don’t do a ton of driving every single day mileage wise. I do sit in the Starbucks drive thru a lot longer than what I would like to admit. I got the extended range battery for road trips and because I know winter impacts efficiency.

Sorry to diagree but as a owner of both the 2021 GTPE and 2023 model y AWD long range both are great ev. The 2023 model had tons of upgrades especially fit and finish. Our y was perfect except slight misalignment of fender flare which took 15 minutes to align. Suspension upgraded and takes bumps and road inperfections very good, new acoustic glass gives less wind noise upgraded seats very comfortable and ota on more effective braking. Three camera view is awesome right left and rear. No blind spots. Using turn signal activates side cameras making mirrors old school.
For $44500 which includes full rebate best value for AWD long range. Very pleased that 3rd ev may be a X AWD long range or Lucid Gravity. Workers at Freemont has done their work well and I will support them and Ford on recommending both extremely nice ev we intend on keeping.

 

[dbsb3233]

And, I think there's more to this discussion. The "what about taking trips" thing gets injected a lot as a defense, but those are exceptions, not the norm. You can only charge the NCM 90% most of the time to protect it, is the norm.

Yes, as I noted, some people road trip a lot, some very little. Some go thousands of miles when they do it, others just a few hundred. Some just take their ICE car and leave the EV at home. That's all a given, and why you can't lump everyone's situation into the same boat. For many people, an EV isn't even a good fit at all. For others its great.

But your 90% comment misses the point here, because it's fine to charge NMC to 100% occasionally. Logically, that occasion is road trips. And road trips are usually the only time range matters. Locally the vast majority of people don't drive anywhere close to the range limit, which means 90% is irrelevant to both cases.

 

[Old_Norm]

You really should check out Costco insurance (Connect). I found that they are the cheapest around. Cost us 100$/month for 500k of coverage. They have been really responsive when we had a claim.

USAA, if you qualify, is the best insurance I've ever had in my extended range years. Both home and auto.

 

[timbop]

But your 90% comment misses the point here, because it's fine to charge NMC to 100% occasionally. Logically, that occasion is road trips. And road trips are usually the only time range matters. Locally the vast majority of people don't drive anywhere close to the range limit, which means 90% is irrelevant to both cases.

Precisely this.

 

[heisnuts]

As another former owner of a MME who went to a Tesla Model 3, I echo a lot of what has been said here and I will add a couple things here that have not been brought up yet.

If you are seriously considering a Tesla, I would rent one first for at least a few days for an extended test drive AFTER watching several videos on how the car actually works. Moving from almost any other car to a Tesla is a big switch. Using voice commands and the screen to control just about everything is a major shift for most and if you are not used to it a quick test drive (especially if you don't know how to operate most things in the car) will be very overwhelming. We rented one for a 600 mile weekend trip and that is what really sold me on the car and the supercharging network.

Any shopper today should be looking at how they are planning to use the car and their service options locally. If you are someone who will rarely if ever take 200+ mile road trips with the car, have a 220V power source at home, and have a local dealer (or service center) close to your home with availability to service the vehicle quickly then it really will not matter what vehicle you go with. The last part of that is huge. When I would call my local Ford dealer for an appointment they were usually weeks out before they could get me in. When I had the HVBJB failures that required an immediate drop off, it would sit at the dealer most of the time waiting to get in or for repairs. Most of my HVBJB repairs took several weeks to complete. My local Tesla service center by contrast has appointments within 3 days and gets the car into the shop the day of your appointment. If I were shopping today, I would first call my local Ford dealer and ask to set up a service appointment for a rattle on a MME and see how far out they were.

Another factor to consider is how much assistance you are looking for during the purchase and servicing of the vehicle. With Tesla it is very much like the self service checkout model at the store. You do the research online, you put in the order yourself online, you complete all the paperwork through the Tesla app or website, you pay for or finance the car through the app or website and then go to the delivery center to take delivery of the car and pretty much set it up yourself. It is very much the same with service. You book the appointment through the app, you check in for service through the app (unless it is a mobile service visit and then they come to you), the communication during the service is all through text and the app, and then the paperwork is sent through the app and the car is parked outside for you to pickup whenever you want (since your phone is the key and they do not need your key card to drive the car). This worked well for me since I already spent a lot of time watching videos about the car before taking delivery and I like dropping the car off the night before for a for service. However, I am sure there have been a lot of customers who were completely lost throughout the process and came away pretty frustrated since they did not know ahead of time how the process works vs a normal car company.

If you plan on taking this car on road trips over 200 miles, I am sure you know the Tesla has a huge advantage that will take a LONG time for the non Tesla makers to catch up with. I know there will be adapters coming "soon" to allow non Tesla EVs to charge at superchargers, but we don't know how that is going to work out yet. We also know that this does not work on V1 and V2 superchargers. I have taken a few road trips so far with the M3P, and I have used a V2 on each trip at least once. I find the car really comfortable on long road trips, but others might not which I why I recommend renting one and taking it on a long road trip.

Finally, look at the price after rebates. Right now a base MY runs $37,880 after rebates vs. $44,450 for a base MME after rebates. The MYLR runs $42,880 vs. $55,550 for the MME4X. The MYP is $46,380 vs. $60,550 for the MMEPE. With Tesla you will also want to bring up the inventory page on their website to see if they have the car you are looking for in local inventory. If so, there is sometimes a discount on that car of up to $3,000 or more. If you do decide to go the Tesla route be sure to ask a current Tesla owner for a referral code BEFORE entering your order/reservation for the car (you cannot add a referral code after you place the order). That will save you $500 off the car, plus whatever current incentive Tesla has going for the referral code at the time. Any Tesla owner can give you a code and you are welcome to PM me for one if you do not already have a friend or family member who owns a Tesla (the person who give the referral will get Tesla points they can use towards supercharging, accessories, etc.).

After 10,000 miles, I am a lot more comfortable using the car and have really come to appreciate how everything just works and works so fast. Voice commands are acted upon almost instantly, the car always does what I have it programmed to do, and I have never had a charging failure or error message both at home and on the road. With the MME I was always double checking if charging had started, I would have a couple times a week scheduled preconditioning would not work, and don't get me started about how many problems I had at EA charging stations. All of this went away with the Tesla. There are some frustrations like the auto windshield wipers that are horrible at sensing how much water is on the windshield and auto cancel turn signals that sometimes turn off too early or too late (you can turn those features off), but overall I am very happy with the car. I will also point out that sometimes Tesla will fix some of those frustrations with OTA updates. In the 4 months I have owned the car I have received over 6 updates and have been amazed on just how much Tesla can change OTA. Features like pop up side camera views with activation of the turn signal have come OTA and phantom braking that was evident when I first got the car has gone away completely after the OTA updates.

 

[RickMachE]

USAA, if you qualify, is the best insurance I've ever had in my extended range years. Both home and auto.

Top rated companies are always USAA, AMICA, and Erie Insurance. USAA had issues some years past, and you need the ex-military tie.

 

[dbsb3233]

Don't you need two figures? The 100% NCM charge that you're not supposed to do daily, and the daily 90% charge. In that world, your 91 gets reduced by 10%. My 72 stays the same.

No. As I just explained in another post, the 90% recommendation is irrelevant unless you happen to be driving 100's of miles that day (assuming you charge overnight).

For the typical person with home charging that drives <150 miles a day around town, 90% is plenty. Making the 90% recommendation irrelevant from a range perspective. And on the days you DO need to go further (usually road trips), you just charge to 100% (which is fine occasionally).

Simple.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Right now you can get a new LR AWD MY for 46k before rebate. Add in the 7.5k fed rebate and whatever additional state/local rebates you may qualify for and the MY will be well under 40k. This is a great bargain compare the competition. Or spend an extra 3k and upgrade to the Performance model. That's the real steal. A MYP for 40k after rebate. I paid 60k for a MYP last year and I still don't regret it.

 

[Old_Norm]

As a military retiree, I qualify for USAA. But we had hard feelings falling out. A while back, my spouse hit a water-covered pothole late at night. I called USAA to get the tire changed. Little did I know and find out years later, after jacked up premiums, that USAA charged my driving record as the passenger with an accident because I made the phone call. So, they can be pretty sleazy. Not to mention, they don't cover homes in Florida, either.

Hitting a pothole IS considered an accident.

Does anybody cover homes in Florida anymore?

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