On the Fence after watching Mach E's thermal system nightmare

[dbsb3233]

The conversation we should be having in this bullsh_t game is, where is the EPA in this mess?

What kind of crap is it that you advertise 312 miles of range, but then buried in the owner's manual is a disclaimer to only charge the car to 90% on a daily basis to protect the battery?

And like the PC Mag article pointed out, automakers don't make it easy to spot which batteries are in the vehicles.

I'd agree that both EPA range and EV buyer knowledge are both severely lacking on the whole.

Regarding EPA range, it's a leftover from ICE methodology that was never properly updated for EVs. EVs need an entirely new methodology. And frankly, the EPA isn't even the right agency to do it. Most mainstream buyers don't give a damn about the environmental aspects, they care about the practical aspects for their usage. More logically it would be a consumer function in Commerce.

Regarding buyer knowledge, that will come with time. We're still in the early adopter stage. EVs require more homework because most people didn't grow up with them and learn the ropes while coming of age like they did with their parents' ICE cars.

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[Ghost Ryder]

The conversation we should be having in this bullsh_t game is, where is the EPA in this mess?

What kind of crap is it that you advertise 312 miles of range, but then buried in the owner's manual is a disclaimer to only charge the car to 90% on a daily basis to protect the battery?

And like the PC Mag article pointed out, automakers don't make it easy to spot which batteries are in the vehicles.

The battery is warrantied until 100k. Most people do not keep their cars until 100k. So I say charge it to 100% daily and let the second owner dealer with it.

 

[Mirak]

BTW, how much is autopilot from Tesla?

And you left out how the madman running his mouth on Twitter daily can affect your Tesla's value.

This is a good example of a poorly-informed post. Doesn’t know the difference between Autopilot and Full Self Driving. Judgment clouded by contempt for “the madman running his mouth on Twitter”. Damn you, free speech!!! If only we could return to the days when a group of San Fransisco twenty-somethings carefully moderated what we could say so as not to offend “the experts” or the intersectional hierarchy.

I don’t do tribal. I know that’s the order of the day on message boards and writ large, but it so tedious. I don’t think any one car is clearly superior for all use cases or preferences. If somebody like the OP is trying to choose, I give them the pros and cons of each.

 

[DevSecOps]

The problem with that logic is that you're "assuming" that the second owners, either dealership middlemen or private parties, will not check the battery's health before purchasing the vehicle.

LOL ... I've sold 3 EVs and no one has ever asked what the SOH was. The warranty of the vehicle covers the battery under the absolute worst conditions, 100% SOC charging using DCFC in 110F. Ford doesn't say "your warranty is invalidated if you charge to 100% SOC daily".

Additionally, as others have said you don't need even the 90% SOC if you're traveling around town so range isn't an argument. Range is only needed on a road trip which is when you would charge to 100% SOC. Your point about 90% is really invalid.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Does anybody cover homes in Florida anymore?

Probably not. But I'm having the same problem in CA. No one will insure my house except for my current insurance company. They are not offering any new contracts but at least are renewing current contracts. However the price has gone up from 2k/year 5 years ago to 10k/year today. Not fun. And I have never filed a claim.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Whatever...

"According to a survey of 5,000 Tesla Model 3 owners, the top reason that they are selling their cars and switching to a different brand is due to their issues with Tesla co-founder and CEO Elon Musk, Electrek reported."

https://news.yahoo.com/survey-reveals-top-reason-tesla-050000876.html#:~:text=According to a survey of,CEO Elon Musk, Electrek reported.

And yet they are increasing their volume every year dispite not having any new products sin 2020 (CT excluded)

Most people don't buy cars because or inspite of ELON. They buy products because it's the best fit and value for them.

 

[DevSecOps]

Whatever...

"According to a survey of 5,000 Tesla Model 3 owners, the top reason that they are selling their cars and switching to a different brand is due to their issues with Tesla co-founder and CEO Elon Musk, Electrek reported."

https://news.yahoo.com/survey-reveals-top-reason-tesla-050000876.html#:~:text=According to a survey of,CEO Elon Musk, Electrek reported.

So 21% of 5k people are just as childish as the person who they claim is childish? They are probably the ones getting their vehicles repo'd for non-payment. Do you buy products from China? According to our government their leader is responsible for numerous human rights violations including murder. So you are okay buying something from a dictator who kills people but not okay buying from a guy with a big mouth who supports American workers and products? That's not a great look.

In the tea leaves, I can see a future question: How often did you fast charge the vehicle?

Another inaccuracy and EV myth. It's been proven through data over time that DCFC isn't that bad (cited).

 

[Guss-E 2021]

Cars are not investments, but they are not disposable either. Your description for how you make a purchase decision is not mainstream. Most people purchase cars based on total cost of ownership: purchase price and depreciation being the most significant factors. Cars are often the second most expensive purchase we (common folks) make.

Mach-Es are currently more expensive than MY and sell for less, making the total cost of ownership significantly higher. The latter is a fact, proven many times on numerous threads. You can personally ignore it if you want, but you can’t claim that it is irrelevant to the purchase decision of the vast majority of people.

My primary point was to address the investment comment I quoted. Considering cost of ownership, which includes the purchase price, is not the same of trying to figure out how much you'll get back if you liquidate the asset. Purchase vs investment.

 

[ChehRob]

I though Sandy was stupidly silly in the video, especially as he made the point even more clearly (and humorously) when they assembled that pile of piping. I am glad to read it all functions at lower temperatures and pressures than piping on an ICE. But a better system would give a bigger frunk.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

The problem with that logic is that you're "assuming" that the second owners, either dealership middlemen or private parties, will not check the battery's health before purchasing the vehicle.

With multiple online car buyers, I don't really have to worry about that.

And if the battery degrade to a certain point, then the OEM will replace it. Win/win.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

I though Sandy was stupidly silly in the video, especially as he made the point even more clearly (and humorously) when they assembled that pile of piping. I am glad to read it all functions at lower temperatures and pressures than piping on an ICE. But a better system would give a bigger frunk.

I think fame has gone to his head, so he tries to be more animated and colorful in his descriptions and "acting." But that doesn't change the underlying engineering/evaluation that his company do. They are a legit firm that specialize in finding ways to improve efficiency and reducing cost. He wouldn't risk the reputation of his firm by knowingly giving out incorrect info. They have clients from multiple OEMs.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Some people might disagree. One poster recently wrote about ditching his MME in lieu of having it radically disassembled.

Carfax!

I think there will always be exceptions. But most don't care. Once you get into more expensive cars then people will start looking at service records and such. But at the MME use price point, it's not an issue. When I sold my 911, the buyers all wanted service records, RPM over shift reports, etc. I heard on the Ferrari forum that unless ENZO himself serviced your car, then it was deemed tainted and would lose 50% of its value.

 

[George Knighton]

I'm ready to pull the trigger on a 23 Mach E Premium with extended range battery, but I just watch Sandy Munro's comparison of the Mach E's thermal system nightmare vs, the Model Y. In addition I am concerned about downtime with HVBJB and other issues. Is this all blown out of proportion? Would you buy another Mach E knowing what you know now? Thanks in advance

I have a '23 GT P and yes, I'd buy it again. My decision was made in part because of multiple level dissatisfactions with the two Model Y Performance that I tested.

Did you know that Sandy owns Tesla stock? Just interesting how he talks up Tesla most of the time.

Bottom line was that he liked the Ford, and there were reasons the team picked a PTC system instead of a heat pump.

Sandy likes to pick on people for using off the shelf items, but manufacturers pick those parts because they are there and they know that they work, Sandy's octovalve orgasms notwithstanding.

I know the HVAC was slated for simplification but I don't know if it happened for the '23 model year or the '24 model year, or it didn't happen at all. Either way, it's not a major concern.

Munro specialty is lowering the price of production and simplifying production...but my experience with the Model Y tells me that lowering the cost of production is going to lead to problems at some point. You can only simplify production so much before you're producing vehicles with cracks in the mega casting, or rear floors that flex visibly and disturbingly when s somebody tries to exit.

The '23 and '24 model years will have the new high voltage battery contactor parts, the same part number that would go into a recalled vehicle.

That doesn't mean that the GT P is a vehicle yous should be using for sprint sessions on the track. It just won't do that.

 

[drjimtaylor]

One additional consideration. Though the MY may be cheaper in terms of MSRP, Tesla's interest rates for loans (6.99%) and leases (don't know the precise money factor, but I've read that it is crazy) are really high. I got my CR1 at a 1.05% 3-year lease rate (Ford doesn't try to hide the APR behind a complicated money factor equation) and Ford had also offered 48 months at 0% and 60 months at 1.99%.

 

[dbsb3233]

Probably not. But I'm having the same problem in CA. No one will insure my house except for my current insurance company. They are not offering any new contracts but at least are renewing current contracts. However the price has gone up from 2k/year 5 years ago to 10k/year today. Not fun. And I have never filed a claim.

It's getting harder here in CO too. My insurance doesn't even offer windshield coverage now.

And my homeowners insurance premium just went up 71%. In one year.

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