Ev community must stick together. The gassers are sick in the head

[Brons2]

I used to be all for EVs but then I did research on them now I'm dead set against them. Just the human and ecological toll it takes just to get the materials to make the batteries should turn everyone one away from them. But I guess as long as it happens in a foreign country far away it ok.

Come on dude, have you ever seen what oil exploration does to the earth? Or any other kind of extraction of raw materials from the earth? Any resource that has to be extracted from the ground, is bad.

Not crazy about the country sourcing for lithium, but then, I'm not crazy about giving money to the middle east for oil, either. Thankfully there is a worldwide search for lithium sources in friendly countries, with recent discoveries in the US Great Basin and in the South American Andes.

As for the human issue, the 2023 standard battery is LFP and does not contain cobalt, and that's what we have.

And really, did you ever care about poor kids in Africa before this cobalt issue came up? Did you think they were going to be home in their air conditioned houses playing on their Nintendo Switches like American kids, if they weren't out panning for cobalt? Of course not, they'd be doing some other kind of hard labor to support their families.

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[AKgrampy]

As someone who owns a Ford Expedition and a Ford Mustang Mach E, I can't tell you how many times I've changed my mind on which car I want to drive. Both ICE and EV have their issues, don't buy into the hype of either side. I'm assuming this post has to do with propaganda from folks who are anti-ev.

I can't help but feel most of the EV backlash is due to politics. If these vehicles weren't getting government subsidies via the tax credit or mandated such as California's 2035 EV mandate, there wouldn't be as much backlash. Years ago, Ev's were cool to everyone but unaffordable for many. Tesla, love them or hate them, were trailblazers in this space and made EV's cool.

Lastly, it's not popular to say this on an EV forum but I'll be honest. I'm a right leaning person politically speaking, and I'm sick of the anti-ev talk coming from right leaning conservatives. I do feel many conservatives have been brainwashed into thinking "EV BAD", in the same manner that left leaning liberals think "ICE BAD".

Back to my first paragraph though, I own an ICE Expedition and an EV Mustang. I love both cars (most of the time), and wish people could reset their pre-conceived notions on each vehicle and enjoy them for what they are, vehicles that get you from point A to point B. But, the Mustang is way more fun to drive ?

I am in the same boat with you regarding vehicles and thoughts on both sides of the equation. So are we half - good or half - bad or half - a$$ed? Then again maybe just right?

 

[Brons2]

As someone who owns a Ford Expedition and a Ford Mustang Mach E, I can't tell you how many times I've changed my mind on which car I want to drive. Both ICE and EV have their issues, don't buy into the hype of either side. I'm assuming this post has to do with propaganda from folks who are anti-ev.

I can't help but feel most of the EV backlash is due to politics. If these vehicles weren't getting government subsidies via the tax credit or mandated such as California's 2035 EV mandate, there wouldn't be as much backlash. Years ago, Ev's were cool to everyone but unaffordable for many. Tesla, love them or hate them, were trailblazers in this space and made EV's cool.

Lastly, it's not popular to say this on an EV forum but I'll be honest. I'm a right leaning person politically speaking, and I'm sick of the anti-ev talk coming from right leaning conservatives. I do feel many conservatives have been brainwashed into thinking "EV BAD", in the same manner that left leaning liberals think "ICE BAD".

Back to my first paragraph though, I own an ICE Expedition and an EV Mustang. I love both cars (most of the time), and wish people could reset their pre-conceived notions on each vehicle and enjoy them for what they are, vehicles that get you from point A to point B. But, the Mustang is way more fun to drive ?

My other car is an older Lincoln Navigator with the 5.4 3V. I would take the Mach-E 10 times out of 10, but our Mach-E is a lease with 15K miles a year, so I find myself taking the Navi a couple of days a week. Plus the Mach-E is my wife's daily so I have to take the Navi when she's out with the Mach-E. I'd probably drive the Navi more if I didn't care about gas cost but it's about $70-$75 to fill it up even at Texas gas prices. I can't imagine if I lived somewhere where gas was $4+ a gallon, I'd probably give it away.

I'm really looking to trade out the Navi for another EV, but something low cost just as a 2nd car, which is how we use the Navi now, only when it's needed. I've seen some Bolts and Leafs pretty cheap around town, might consider that at some point. I've rented and liked the newer hybrid Siennas, power is adequate and I got 35-36 MPG whether I was driving at 75 on the open road or stuck in LA traffic, but they are over $30K used for a base model. Seen some higher mileage ex-rental Siennas at Avis car sales in the mid-$20s , but not sure if I'm willing to go there. We'll see, just want something cheap and no or minimal gas. Obviouisly with the models mentioned, IDGAF about my personal image, I'm too old to care.

Agree about the EV backlash being politically driven. I'm extremely middle of the road and I'm not trying to save the Earth or anything, we just like the way EVs drive. The instant torque is transformative. I agree that there's a lot of people out there that have no personal experience with EV's that are saying a lot on social media and IRL. But anyway, that seems to be par for the course in this day and age, "I read about it on the Internet therefore I am an expert!".

 

[Teslaeata]

I don't care what anyone thinks. Happy to try and inform, but not wasting my time with the idiots. Just smile and say have a good day.

?


Have a good day.

 

[Brons2]

I expected to get trashed by all the EV people who blindly go their marry way believing these vehicles are saving the environment. If you want an EV that's fine but don't feel like your doing anything more than not buying gasoline that just shows you refuse to do the research.

I did my own "research" huh? Obviously you have cherry picked your "data".

Seriously, why are you on this site?

 

[Phantom E]

As someone who owns a Ford Expedition and a Ford Mustang Mach E, I can't tell you how many times I've changed my mind on which car I want to drive. Both ICE and EV have their issues, don't buy into the hype of either side. I'm assuming this post has to do with propaganda from folks who are anti-ev.

I can't help but feel most of the EV backlash is due to politics. If these vehicles weren't getting government subsidies via the tax credit or mandated such as California's 2035 EV mandate, there wouldn't be as much backlash. Years ago, Ev's were cool to everyone but unaffordable for many. Tesla, love them or hate them, were trailblazers in this space and made EV's cool.

Lastly, it's not popular to say this on an EV forum but I'll be honest. I'm a right leaning person politically speaking, and I'm sick of the anti-ev talk coming from right leaning conservatives. I do feel many conservatives have been brainwashed into thinking "EV BAD", in the same manner that left leaning liberals think "ICE BAD".

Back to my first paragraph though, I own an ICE Expedition and an EV Mustang. I love both cars (most of the time), and wish people could reset their pre-conceived notions on each vehicle and enjoy them for what they are, vehicles that get you from point A to point B. But, the Mustang is way more fun to drive ?

Very well said.

I don't know why it has to be an "us vs. them" scenario, except that's the way politicians like to pit people against each other.

Both EV and ICE has it's place, and it should be up to the consumer, not the government to decide what they need and buy.

The reality is that electric cars don't really reduce emissions, they just transfer it elsewhere. Most electricity production still produces pollution, just not out the tailpipe of an EV (see below). I like my EV that I charge with power that I produce from solar, and I also have ICE vehicles that I use for purposes better suited to them. In my view they are a tool for a job, not a statement.

 

[devmach-e]

The reality is that electric cars don't really reduce emissions, they just transfer it elsewhere. Most electricity production still produces pollution, just not out the tailpipe of an EV (see below). I like my EV that I charge with power that I produce from solar, and I also have ICE vehicles that I use for purposes better suited to them. In my view they are a tool for a job, not a statement.

It is far easier to control the emissions at a single point rather than millions of points. Not to mention that the efficiency of the typical ICE is maybe 25%, and power plants operate at a much higher efficiency. As the grid gets cleaner, so do the EVs on the road. The same can't be said for traditional ICE vehicles. They just get dirtier over time.

 

[Brons2]

The reality is that electric cars don't really reduce emissions, they just transfer it elsewhere. Most electricity production still produces pollution, just not out the tailpipe of an EV (see below). I like my EV that I charge with power that I produce from solar, and I also have ICE vehicles that I use for purposes better suited to them. In my view they are a tool for a job, not a statement.

This gets into thermal efficiency arguments. Even if a generating plant is running multiple natural gas turbines (as is the case with the Fayetteville Power Station about 90 miles down the road from me near Fayetteville, TX) they are more thermally efficient than a gasoline engine by a fair margin. The waste heat from the turbines can be recaptured to drive co-generation and the resulting thermal efficiency is much higher than a gasoline car. This technology cannot really be duplicated on an ICE vehicle as the packaging required does not allow for it to be neatly placed in a road going vehicle.

The limiting factor on EVs is of course the energy density of the battery. It's not enough to replace a diesel F250 that is actually doing work, for example. The liquid petroleum fuel can do more work for a relative capacity of fuel and weight of fuel carried, even at a low overall thermal efficiency. Additionally, for the tradesman who is paid by the hour, there is the time to recharge being higher than a liquid fill-up, that time is money to them.

It is possible there are battery breakthroughs out there to resolve these situations, it will be exciting to see the new technologies that come down the pipe.

 

[Mach1E]

Come on dude, have you ever seen what oil exploration does to the earth? Or any other kind of extraction of raw materials from the earth? Any resource that has to be extracted from the ground, is bad.

Not crazy about the country sourcing for lithium, but then, I'm not crazy about giving money to the middle east for oil, either. Thankfully there is a worldwide search for lithium sources in friendly countries, with recent discoveries in the US Great Basin and in the South American Andes.

As for the human issue, the 2023 standard battery is LFP and does not contain cobalt, and that's what we have.

And really, did you ever care about poor kids in Africa before this cobalt issue came up? Did you think they were going to be home in their air conditioned houses playing on their Nintendo Switches like American kids, if they weren't out panning for cobalt? Of course not, they'd be doing some other kind of hard labor to support their families.

It’s the same argument that has been hashed out many times.

But really you are arguing about “bad” for the environment vs “worse” for the environment.

The problem comes when people try to proclaim they are actually doing “good” for the environment.

Nothing about buying a new car is “good” for the environment.

It’s more about it being slightly “less bad.”

Best thing would be to walk or ride a bicycle and make sure to plant a tree or two on your commute. That would actually be “good.”

 

[Brons2]

Best thing would be to walk or ride a bicycle and make sure to plant a tree or two on your commute. That would actually be “good.”

I rode my bicycle everywhere when I was young and single, even when it was 100+, I have lived in the Austin area for 32 years. I owned a 60s house in an up and coming area with a lot of younger folks and most everything I needed was within a 15 minute bike ride away.

But when you get older and married and have a family, and move to the suburbs, it's just not so practical. Things are far apart where I live and the wife and the kid don't really want to have to ride bicycles places. lol.

Maybe if we moved back to my native Oregon, but then there is the cold and rain in the wintertime, it's not really more pleasant than riding when it's 100 out. Although the overall percentage of time you could ride a bike to work is probably higher in Western Oregon than here in Central Texas. But, whatever.

Suffice it to say that I am open to riding, walking and using public transportation. I'm just not really in the season of life for doing it. If you want to send your kids to top flight public schools, it pretty much dictates living somewhere that is car bound, if you live in the US.

 

[Herbknowsit]

I ran a business for 45 years without getting a nickel in government subsidies. And bit my tongue while local farmers raked in thousands in governmental monies. There are solid reasons for tax breaks for solar/EV’s. Unless you want to keep foreign nations holding their thumb on us with their oil. Pipelining fossil fuel back and forth across the country? That’s Erie Canal era thinking.

 

[ReverendPete]

There have been a lot of studies trying to look at the environmental impacts of BEV vs ICE vehicles, most notably looking specifically at greenhouse gas emissions.

It is certainly true that there is more of an upfront negative impact on the environment in the mining and construction of a BEV compared to an ICE. But studies have repeatedly shown that the total environmental impact over the average life of a vehicle is lower for BEV than ICE.

This is all assuming that you didn't get rear ended at 5K miles and have the insurance carrier total your car because the battery tray was damaged and repair is dangerous and too expensive. (I expect that to change for the better over time).

Here are a couple articles from reputable sources:



https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/environmental-impact-of-evs-vs-gas-cars

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

As others have mentioned, I think a lot of the pushback is because people feel their way of life is being threatened, and that they're going to have change rammed down their throats... Well, that, and as the South Park episode about hybrids many years ago pointed out, clouds of smug can be as off-putting as clouds of smog...

 

[Spacey]

What high pressure hoses does an ICE have that we don’t?

Seems we have about the same amount of crap to break as any other car on the road. Add into that the extra software bugs issues and sensitivity and there is good reason why BEVs haven’t gotten great reliability ratings…….yet.

An ICE vehicle has high pressure coolant circulating around the radiator and engine block. (Blown cylinder head gaskets etc). There are usually warning labels not to take off the radiator cap with the engine running. (Superheated steam at high pressure). The coolant in an EV circulates at a lower pressure so less strain on the hoses and clamps.

Don't forget the huge reduction in physical moving parts for ev's. Electric motors instead of an engine and no multi ratio gear box, especially the hell hole of a VW group DSG gearbox on a plug in hybrid which is a service item of £2,000 ( no idea what $ equivalent is) for a fluid change at 20,000 miles. Incidentally my relative never plugs it in and relies on the IC engine and complains about the bad economy and range. Ho, hum.

 

[Brons2]

An ICE vehicle has high pressure coolant circulating around the radiator and engine block. (Blown cylinder head gaskets etc). There are usually warning labels not to take off the radiator cap with the engine running. (Superheated steam at high pressure). The coolant in an EV circulates at a lower pressure so less strain on the hoses and clamps.

ICE coolant is pressurized at 16-21 PSI to raise the boiling point. It's not exactly what I would call "high pressure". One can even run a waterless coolant like Evans, that is not pressurized at all because with no water there is no vapor pressure at temps over 212F/100C like ethylene glycol/water mixes.

There are warnings on the radiator cap and degauss bottle, to avoid releasing pressure when hot, this is true, but if you just use a thick towel you can take the radiator cap off carefully. I've done it back in the day with some domestic iron, in order to get down the road.

Modern cars don't overheat for the most part like the old ones, but if they do, you're likely to warp a cylinder head. The old ones usually ran fine after they cooled off.

Anyway...

Compare the sorts of pressures present in an ICE engine with say the hydraulic system of a commercial airliner, it's 3000 psi commonly and 5000 psi on some of the newer models. You rupture a hose on one of those, it's a threat to life and limb, and the Skydrol will shoot all the way across the taxiway.

 

[Mach1E]

An ICE vehicle has high pressure coolant circulating around the radiator and engine block. (Blown cylinder head gaskets etc). There are usually warning labels not to take off the radiator cap with the engine running. (Superheated steam at high pressure). The coolant in an EV circulates at a lower pressure so less strain on the hoses and clamps.

Don't forget the huge reduction in physical moving parts for ev's. Electric motors instead of an engine and no multi ratio gear box, especially the hell hole of a VW group DSG gearbox on a plug in hybrid which is a service item of £2,000 ( no idea what $ equivalent is) for a fluid change at 20,000 miles. Incidentally my relative never plugs it in and relies on the IC engine and complains about the bad economy and range. Ho, hum.

Interesting. I just figured our coolant systems were somewhat similar.

I’ve heard the “less moving parts” argument before. But if the end result isn’t more reliability, it doesn’t really matter much.

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