$77K ... No thanks

[DennisD]

All human institutions, like all humans, come with some imperfections. Regulations almost always create more imperfections than they eliminate. Such was the case in 1929, and throughout the '30s.

Spending a bunch of money on a fancy electric car seems foolish to me, too. But if that's what makes someone happy, I say more power to them. I bought an electric Mustang myself, when I certainly could have paid less for a satisfactory car. But the Mustang made me happy, so I bought it.

Fools who spend money they can't afford is a universal problem that won't be fully solved by markets or by regulation.

I agree that humans come with imperfections. That is why we have laws and regulations. If we were perfect, no need to regulate the "stupid" humans. We won't solve the problem, but we sure can ease the pain of failure at the cost of stupid humans not knowing what is up or down when it comes to borrowing money. Let's call it guidance.

I also have seen what these "stupid humans" did in the Housing Bubble along with the Stock Market Crash. Regulations were put into place after '29 and we had little problems until those same regulations were removed and you can see it's demise in the '07 repeat. History is there for humans to understand previous humans stupidity. Unfortunately many people forget the past for the convenience of greed. There motto is let it burn down and let someone else build it back up.

The less imperfect humans had to bail the more imperfect (high risk takers with no common sense). The less imperfect humans said no more, and curtailed some of the high risk behaviors i.e. regulations.

Once again, I am all for the free market and have no problem with foolish people wanting to pay ADM to make them happy. I just hope those "happy" people can afford to do so without the patient people bailing them out like so many times in the past.

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[Ming]

in the meanwhile, Tesla is happy to sell you a USED model Y (2021 with 26k miles) for this price... the car probably was sold at 55k new or even less a year back.
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[phil]

I just hope those "happy" people can afford to do so without the patient people bailing them out like so many times in the past.

You should politely decline to participate in funding a bailout. Surely enlightened laws and regulations will permit this.

 

[Phil-Springs]

Local dealer (Phil Long Ford Motor City, Colorado Springs) called with a "Deal" on a CA RT1.... asking $77k. She seemed shocked that I knew that the MSRP was under $60k for such a car. FWIW I do understand a limited ADM, but c'mon.

Sadly, someone else is going to probably pay this anyway.

Who called?

 

[MellowJohnny]

gotta make some money with no inventory. they would have a dealership with no cars to sell but still 10k adm is overkill. i hope people will remember it and avoid them when the shortage is over

Semi-unrelated but I had my Golf Sportwagen in for a tire swap this week - dealer floor had two Atlas models and two *used* Audis - an A4 and a Q7. Never seen a used car on a dealership floor, unless it was rare / special. Amazing how little inventory there is.

 

[DrJay32]

Who called?

Someone named Karen

 

[DennisD]

You should politely decline to participate in funding a bailout. Surely enlightened laws and regulations will permit this.

No need for a bailout if the ignorant people were educated on how to properly spend their money. The high ADM reminds me of the high housing back in 07. Because people could borrow money and they thought that if they didn't buy now, they would not get a chance to later on, they spent it like water running through a faucet whether they could afford it or not. Once again, I have no issue with people spending their own money foolishly, I just don't like to cover the cost of Bankruptcies and the like when they borrow and spend it foolishly.

Bailouts are mainly needed when stupid people throw their money (usually other peoples money i.e. borrowed) into the wind with little care to the future of what happens.

I would love to not bailout the ignorant but unfortunately that would bring the whole house of cards down (including you and me) with it if we chose that path. I know of no one that likes regulations and I know of no one that likes paying taxes. What I do know is that there are many people that are too stupid with their money (or lack of) along with people waiting in the wing to take advantage of said stupid people.

I don't know the full answer but I do know that when people go unchecked, greed takes over and it usually goes south from there. One could go to any car dealership and really see how these stupid people buy the add on's and other crap they don't need and just look at the monthly payment and conclude that they "might" be able to pay for this. ?

Free markets are a double edged sword, they are IMO the best system but come with much pain at times.

 

[ridgebackpilot]

There are a lot of people who have little to none financial sense. They spend on impulse and will hock themselves to high heaven. They will roll negative equity from one car to the next. 84 month financing. Then there is a very small group of people who have a lot of money and spending a extra 5-15 grand on what they want and when they want is normal for them.

A good friend of mine started a very successful advertising agency in Portland, Oregon. He owns a King Air, lots of commercial real estate, homes in several states, and more cars than I can imagine ever possessing.

But he won't pay ADM, ever! Even though he easily could, he doesn't believe in it. He calls it the dealer's "F@ck You Fee". When I asked him, he told me wealthy people don't get rich and stay that way by paying more than they should for cars or anything else. He also pointed out that dealers add no value, they just add price, so you're not actually getting anything different for the extra money.

I'll never pay one cent of ADM and never do business with a dealership that charges it. I consider price-gouging customers an unethical business practice. Dealers that engage in such practices are shortsighted at best. My dealer takes the long view and refuses to charge ADM, no matter what the demand for their cars. That's why I go back there every few years.

This whole debate is probably going to be moot soon. That's because I expect the dealership model will soon go the way of the dinosaurs. Tesla and others have already abandoned the model; they have no dealers. Everyone who orders a Tesla pays the same price; there's no such thing as ADM. As it should be.

 

[jlauro]

Dealers do add value. For one thing, they are an extra set of QC, going over the vehicle before it gets to the customer, and is one thing which Tesla is surely lacking. That said, ADM ads little value (could argue sometimes it's a convenience fee) and often it's a negotiating point as some (not many) purchasers like to haggle, so the ADM gives them a place to come down from.

 

[ARK]

A good friend of mine started a very successful advertising agency in Portland, Oregon. He owns a King Air, lots of commercial real estate, homes in several states, and more cars than I can imagine ever possessing.

But he won't pay ADM, ever! Even though he easily could, he doesn't believe in it. He calls it the dealer's "F@ck You Fee". When I asked him, he told me wealthy people don't get rich and stay that way by paying more than they should for cars or anything else. He also pointed out that dealers add no value, they just add price, so you're not actually getting anything different for the extra money.

I'll never pay one cent of ADM and never do business with a dealership that charges it. I consider price-gouging customers an unethical business practice. Dealers that engage in such practices are shortsighted at best. My dealer takes the long view and refuses to charge ADM, no matter what the demand for their cars. That's why I go back there every few years.

This whole debate is probably going to be moot soon. That's because I expect the dealership model will soon go the way of the dinosaurs. Tesla and others have already abandoned the model; they have no dealers. Everyone who orders a Tesla pays the same price; there's no such thing as ADM. As it should be.

Tesla’s innovation is they make people feel like they’re not getting screwed when ADM is baked into the purchase price.

It’s a human psychology thing, people hate the thought that they are paying more than others, that they are getting screwed, giving money away for nothing.

When people believe everyone is buying at the same price, and therefore everyone is being treated ‘fairly’, their resistance to BS prices drops away.

Elon Musk has said numerous times on Twitter over the past year that Tesla has had no choice to raise prices because of rising prices for materials that they are facing.

Yet with their most recent quarter, Tesla announced their highest ever profit margin, meaning after you account for their costs, they are left with more money per vehicle than ever before.

Point being, just because everyone is paying the ADM because it’s baked into Tesla’s direct price doesn’t mean it’s not there and that your wallet isn’t substantially lighter because everyone’s wallet is also substantially lighter. They have raised prices over $10,000 across their lineup over the last year. Tesla is a leader in marketing tactics too, not just EVs.

 

[DennisD]

Tesla’s innovation is they make people feel like they’re not getting screwed when ADM is baked into the purchase price.

It’s a human psychology thing, people hate the thought that they are paying more than others, that they are getting screwed, giving money away for nothing.

When people believe everyone is buying at the same price, and therefore everyone is being treated ‘fairly’, their resistance to BS prices drops away.

Elon Musk has said numerous times on Twitter over the past year that Tesla has had no choice to raise prices because of rising prices for materials that they are facing.

Yet with their most recent quarter, Tesla announced their highest ever profit margin, meaning after you account for their costs, they are left with more money per vehicle than ever before.

Point being, just because everyone is paying the ADM because it’s baked into Tesla’s direct price doesn’t mean it’s not there and that your wallet isn’t substantially lighter because everyone’s wallet is also substantially lighter. They have raised prices over $10,000 across their lineup over the last year. Tesla is a leader in marketing tactics too, not just EVs.

The MME has raised it's price as well via Ford.

The main difference is that when Ford gets the extra money, some goes back into research to make the next model year possibly better.

When the dealership takes the extra money, some goes into a vacation fund for their immediate family.

I will take "What is Research" for 10k Alex. ?

 

[TGIF]

When I was looking for one on a lot a couple of male coworkers were searching with me. They would find one incoming on the Ford inventory and tell me the MSRP on a premium and I’d say “no that’s the star white“ or “no that’s the ER, not the SR”. After about the third or fourth one they asked how I knew. I told them I’d spent 4 months looking at inventory and options and I knew. They looked shocked and impressed.

I sometimes think the dealers think most people just woke up this morning and decided to buy an MME. I live in Tampa and I talked to someone at that dealership. A lot of us have searched for a long time or a long distance. We know the pricing, options and details better than they do.

When I got one on the lot, I knew way more about the car than the walkthrough instructor. Although he was very nice, professional and was really trying. ?

I am also a woman who does the car buying for my family. I had a couple bad experiences with the local dealership whose owner lives across the street from me. I bought the next car out of town. Supposedly, he called his sales staff in and said he never wanted to see another dealers car parked in his neighbors driveway. He also said if I ever came in again the salesperson assigned to me better know everything about the car I was interested in because I would know everything about the car. I did give them a chance at getting the sale on the next car and there were no games and the sale went through easily. BTW, my dad was a used car dealer.

 

[TGIF]

Suppose you’re older, have more than enough to live a wealthy life, learn about this car, really want it, probably have a decade or so of good driving left, kids stand to inherit hundreds of thousands if not a couple of mil one day, is it so crazy to spend an extra $10,000 to $15,000 to get this car now no hassle for that price rather than shop around for a reasonable dealership and order one expecting to get it in a year with $0 ADM?

Tens of thousands of Americans in this situation, basically.

That describes me, basically, and I waited 6 1/2 months for my car. No ADM and price protection. Different strokes for different folks. Time and money are both finite, so different people will reach different conclusions.

 

[kindofblue]

Tesla’s innovation is they make people feel like they’re not getting screwed when ADM is baked into the purchase price.

It’s a human psychology thing, people hate the thought that they are paying more than others, that they are getting screwed, giving money away for nothing.

When people believe everyone is buying at the same price, and therefore everyone is being treated ‘fairly’, their resistance to BS prices drops away.

Elon Musk has said numerous times on Twitter over the past year that Tesla has had no choice to raise prices because of rising prices for materials that they are facing.

Yet with their most recent quarter, Tesla announced their highest ever profit margin, meaning after you account for their costs, they are left with more money per vehicle than ever before.

Point being, just because everyone is paying the ADM because it’s baked into Tesla’s direct price doesn’t mean it’s not there and that your wallet isn’t substantially lighter because everyone’s wallet is also substantially lighter. They have raised prices over $10,000 across their lineup over the last year. Tesla is a leader in marketing tactics too, not just EVs.

Our MY that we took delivery on in 3/31/2021 is not $12,500 more expensive if ordered today. I thought it was fairly priced last year but not this year and mention this to people when they ask about the MY.

 

[Logal727]

in the meanwhile, Tesla is happy to sell you a USED model Y (2021 with 26k miles) for this price... the car probably was sold at 55k new or even less a year back.
View attachment 796808

And they don’t even have the backlog like other makers

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