800v vs 400v Architecture

[dje4msu]

I am neither an engineer nor an electrician, so this is all outside my wheelhouse. Clearly the 800v system is superior in terms of charging speed. This is a distinct advantage of the EV6 and Ioniq. Why didn't Ford implement an 800 v system in the MME? Is it that much more complex or expensive? If it is more expensive, what makes it more costly and by how much? Thanks for your responses.

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[AZBill]

It takes different designs for the motors and power electronics, and those were not readily available when they designed the MME.

GM has designed the Ultium platform to accommodate either voltage, and their trucks do charge at 800V. Ford is behind on the F150 for sure. Porsche , Lucid and Hyundai are all 800V.

The other issue is that the charging networks only recently began supporting the higher voltages.

 

[ab13]

I am neither an engineer nor an electrician, so this is all outside my wheelhouse. Clearly the 800v system is superior in terms of charging speed. This is a distinct advantage of the EV6 and Ioniq. Why didn't Ford implement an 800 v system in the MME? Is it that much more complex or expensive? If it is more expensive, what makes it more costly and by how much? Thanks for your responses.

Time to market, they were trying to get to market as fast as possible, so they had to use known items that worked. They were over a year ahead of Hyundai in sales, giving them more name recognition, as the Mach E has been shipping in North America, Europe, and recently China. The other question is how reliable are the other systems, since Hyundai seems to have various engine recalls on existing product over the years, I would worry a little.

This story and video is a great lecture on the 800 V architecture of Lucid.
https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...eo-give-the-best-ev-battery-primer-yet.15481/

 

[Logal727]

It would be nice to have but the real world tests I’ve seen have been negligible in the amount of time saved charging.

 

[Socalsp3]

It would be nice to have but the real world tests I’ve seen have been negligible in the amount of time saved charging.

With my Ioniq 5 I regularly charge 18-80% in 20 mins on a 150 kw EA station and average about 165 kw the entire time. Haven't tried the 350 kw charger yet but I'm sure I can get 10-80% in 18 mins as advertised.

Instead of bigger batteries I think Ford need to go in the direction of fast charging. It's more efficient than carrying extra weight.

 

[Logal727]

With my Ioniq 5 I regularly charge 18-80% in 20 mins on a 150 kw EA station and average about 165 kw the entire time. Haven't tried the 350 kw charger yet but I'm sure I can get 10-80% in 18 mins as advertised.

Instead of bigger batteries I think Ford need to go in the direction of fast charging. It's more efficient than carrying extra weight.

I’m sure they will eventually get it, I just don’t think it’s the dealbreaker people sometimes make it out to be due to charging curves. I was at an EA station the other day and an EV6 pulls up and the driver had been on a road trip from Alabama and said she never got more than 150 on any charger, even though she was using the 350 stations. I should have probed more, but I’m sure she was running into charging curve behavior or was maybe charging into the higher end of the battery. Seemed like she was pretty new to it all, very nice car though.

 

[RickMachE]

In my experience at charging stations, most people are totally clueless about their vehicle's charging capability. The overwhelming majority of owners of "free charging for X years" vehicles site "free charging" as the top benefit of their vehicle. Majority of them have been LOCAL vehicles, i.e. using the free DC charging instead of charging at home.

 

[capnhowdy21]

I know when I was looking there was very few chargers that supported the higher speeds, so that may have been a factor.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

Time to market, they were trying to get to market as fast as possible, so they had to use known items that worked. They were over a year ahead of Hyundai in sales, giving them more name recognition, as the Mach E has been shipping in North America, Europe, and recently China. The other question is how reliable are the other systems, since Hyundai seems to have various engine recalls on existing product over the years, I would worry a little.

This story and video is a great lecture on the 800 V architecture of Lucid.
https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...eo-give-the-best-ev-battery-primer-yet.15481/

Yep, Ford needed to get out front to claim #2 in EV behind Tesla for sure. As far as Hyundai goes, I think they’ll do just fine being that they’re in a battery tech partnership with Rimac, and, therefore Porsche as well. Very smart move.

 

[RonTCat]

I am neither an engineer nor an electrician, so this is all outside my wheelhouse. Clearly the 800v system is superior in terms of charging speed. This is a distinct advantage of the EV6 and Ioniq. Why didn't Ford implement an 800 v system in the MME? Is it that much more complex or expensive? If it is more expensive, what makes it more costly and by how much? Thanks for your responses.

1) Most owners here would say there are not enough 400v stations presently. There are probably 1000x times more 400v than 800v stations. Finding an 800v station is like hitting the lottery right now. In 5-10 years, that might change. So you will see more 800v cars in 5-10 years.
2) The vast majority of charging is done at your home, where it is cheapest. You will likely never have a 400v or 800v station at your home. If you do have one at your home, your net income is so sky high you can just drive one of your other 100 vehicles while the butler is charging your car slowly at 400v vs. 800v.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

1) Most owners here would say there are not enough 400v stations presently. There are probably 1000x times more 400v than 800v stations. Finding an 800v station is like hitting the lottery right now. In 5-10 years, that might change. So you will see more 800v cars in 5-10 years.
2) The vast majority of charging is done at your home, where it is cheapest. You will likely never have a 400v or 800v station at your home. If you do have one at your home, your net income is so sky high you can just drive one of your other 100 vehicles while the butler is charging your car slowly at 400v vs. 800v.

True, but, Delphi and ZF are big suppliers that are on record as saying they’ve already seen a big shift towards 800V architecture, especially from the luxury EV makers. They’re supplying 800V inverter tech to a bunch of OEMs. Supposedly gonna be lots of it by 2025 with Porsche, Lucid, Hyundai/Kia, GM Ultium et al. already in. More coming.

 

[kltye]

Tesla is still using a 400v architecture, and they're able to achieve a better charging curve than we are. I think it all comes down to Ford's ultra-conservative treatment of the battery pack. Have you seen the temperatures the EV6's pack hits when fast charging? Bjorn Nyland's videos show that it gets hot enough (in winter, no less!) to start throttling the speeds. I'm not looking to cook my battery pack at 44 degrees C when fast charging. Having said that, I'm certain Ford can further boost our charge speeds, possibly by holding it closer to 150kW for longer through the curve.

 

[Ma9573]

I know there was talk a while back of Ford having the charge cliff drop off at 90% instead of 80% for 2021 cars... Did that ever happen? As someone that only uses public chargers that would actually be more beneficial than increasing and extending the top charge speeds.

 

[kltye]

I know there was talk a while back of Ford having the charge cliff drop off at 90% instead of 80% for 2021 cars... Did that ever happen? As someone that only uses public chargers that would actually be more beneficial than increasing and extending the top charge speeds.

It depends on what cliff you're referring to. If you're talking about the 12-ish kW cliff at 80%, that's been solved with 21P22. If you're referring to the new 44kW cliff at 80%, nothing's changed about that yet.

 

[Ma9573]

It depends on what cliff you're referring to. If you're talking about the 12-ish kW cliff at 80%, that's been solved with 21P22. If you're referring to the new 44kW cliff at 80%, nothing's changed about that yet.

Thanks! I was referring to the 12kw cliff. Last time I brought my car in I was told it wasn't eligible for the update. Maybe I'll try again.

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