jeffdawgfan

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My theory is that zero on the guess-o-meter isn't really zero, the same way "E" isn't really empty on an ICE. They may cap displaying the value at 0 (ie not allow it to go negative), but it seems likely that they might leave a couple kwh available for nitwits like me who push it beyond where I'm supposed to.

Just my uninformed opinion.
They are not going to let you drain the battery to absolute 0% as this is not very good for a Lithium Ion, or really any battery for that matter. Not sure what the basement battery buffer is but willing to bet at least 2-3 kwh remaining when reading 0%. One time, I drove my Bolt to 0% because the EvGo charger I planned on using was not working. I drove on about six miles and made it home. When I recharged I calculated that the battery actually still had about 5% capacity left at 0% indicated when I evaluated what the charger told me it put back into the battery. At 4.4 miles/kwh that means I still had 3.3 kwh or about 15 miles of range left at 0%. Figure this is pretty typical of all EV makers....excepting Tesla as they do not share a lot of information.





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available_username2

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The heat pump kills us again. He would have gone 278.5 miles with a heat pump.
actually heat pumps have some weight, so they actually reduce range in warm temperatures. So he would have had worse range with a heat pump he wasn't using. It's why they don't actually make a big difference.
 

timbop

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They are not going to let you drain the battery to absolute 0% as this is not very good for a Lithium Ion, or really any battery for that matter. Not sure what the basement battery buffer is but willing to bet at least 2-3 kwh remaining when reading 0%. One time, I drove my Bolt to 0% because the EvGo charger I planned on using was not working. I drove on about six miles and made it home. When I recharged I calculated that the battery actually still had about 5% capacity left at 0% indicated when I evaluated what the charger told me it put back into the battery. At 4.4 miles/kwh that means I still had 3.3 kwh or about 15 miles of range left at 0%. Figure this is pretty typical of all EV makers....excepting Tesla as they do not share a lot of information.
Yes, of course they don't let you drain to absolutely empty/0 kwh. They allocate 88kwh as "usable", which has some of the 99 kwh walled off at the bottom and some walled off at the top. What I am saying is that they are artificially telling you that you've hit the bottom of the 88kwh "usable" range before you actually have. For purposes of argument, let's say they reserve the bottom 4kwh as unusable. When the battery gets below some threshold - let's say 10kwh actually left - then they start to "underreport" what's left so that when there are 6kwh ACTUALLY in the battery (4 of which you can't use) it reports that it has 0 kwh remaining. It continues to report 0% and let you drive, until the actual left in the battery is 4kwh (the "walled off") portion.

No idea if I am correct or not, but it would be consistent with Ford trying to prevent us from shooting ourselves in the foot.
 

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Sure, but not by a huge margin. Assuming the AWD LR Y with 75kwh and AWD ER E with 88kwh get about the same range in exactly the same conditions, then the difference is only 15%-17% (depending upon which you use as the divisor).

I'll give up that 15% to get a much better looking car from a manufacturer I trust. I also prefer not to be in a personality cult.
I laughed when I read your "personality cult" comment, but to be fair, not every Tesla owner is that way. I've met several who are pretty balanced. As in all things internet, the worst aspects get amplified...

Sigh.
 

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Glad to see the range numbers hold up under some realistic mixed driving conditions. Conservative is good when predicting capacity.

As for the efficiency topic, as mentioned, the potential difference is in the 15% range to the Model Y - on an ICE vehicle we'd be talking about 22mpg vs 25mpg, which isn't nothing, but you wouldn't see this kind of thread talking about that kind of difference.

I think there are things that Ford could do to improve efficiency right off the bat - lower weight, more aerodynamic wheels, heat pump, improved cooling and heating algorithms in the pack, possibly even firmware changes on the IDMs, etc. I think some of these improvements can be had over time on existing vehicles, and some will wait for the next refresh. I'm not too worried about it. Heat pumps are complex, and most companies haven't wanted to release them on a new vehicle day 1 (Tesla didn't).

Overall you have to take these vehicles as a package - the MachE is slightly less efficient than the Model Y, but that doesn't mean it is a worse car. There are also some long-term elements at play here - larger batteries are heavier to move around, thus lower range, but they also degrade slower due to the large holdbacks. Tesla is playing fast and loose with their degradation numbers, and I'd be willing to bet that if you compare a 10 year old Model Y with a 10 year old Mach E you'd see a big gap in usable range. Now I know we aren't buying our cars today thinking about 10 years from now, but companies that sell a lot of energy storage (like mine) need to think long, which is something younger companies like Tesla aren't always as good at.
Fast comment: as to conservative being good on range estimation, on my FE, it is a pain in the a$$.

Here's why: I have a specific, often driven trip, that exceeds the range estimate of the MME's software. But the car will do that range: I know it, because I can do math--2.5 mi/kwhr times 88 kwhr is more than the trip distance. I have done it. It's not a problem.

But in the MME, when you enter the destination, it demands that you make a DCFC stop, and it puts in a route which is much longer: a couple of hours longer in my case. And you can't override it. Even when you are halfway there, and the miles/kwhr and the SOC clearly show that your destination is in reach, the MME software won't allow you to display the route that you are driving, instead still insisting on the enormous detour that will be required to get to the nearest DCFC.

This is very irritating. (I love the car otherwise, but this sucks, to be clear!) Either Ford needs to make the range estimate more realistic, or update it faster based on that particular drive's data, or it needs to allow the user to override the Ford route and input the one that you want to drive, and merely dismiss a warning about "battery range exceeded" or whatever.

A range estimate, I think, needs to be accurate, and it should display, as does the Chevy Bolt, at least three numbers: the expected range, based upon the last drive(s), an optimistic range (based upon good, but not unrealistic, conditions), and a pessimistic range. And the nav system should allow me to override its predictions and enter the route that I want. I bought the car, I know what I'm doing, and I'm responsible for the towing charge if I end up dead on the side of the road.

Ford needs to change this. And soon. IMHO.
 

JayTee

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I laughed when I read your "personality cult" comment, but to be fair, not every Tesla owner is that way. I've met several who are pretty balanced. As in all things internet, the worst aspects get amplified...

Sigh.
But that stock price...
 

JayTee

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Fast comment: as to conservative being good on range estimation, on my FE, it is a pain in the a$$.

Here's why: I have a specific, often driven trip, that exceeds the range estimate of the MME's software. But the car will do that range: I know it, because I can do math--2.5 mi/kwhr times 88 kwhr is more than the trip distance. I have done it. It's not a problem.

But in the MME, when you enter the destination, it demands that you make a DCFC stop, and it puts in a route which is much longer: a couple of hours longer in my case. And you can't override it. Even when you are halfway there, and the miles/kwhr and the SOC clearly show that your destination is in reach, the MME software won't allow you to display the route that you are driving, instead still insisting on the enormous detour that will be required to get to the nearest DCFC.

This is very irritating. (I love the car otherwise, but this sucks, to be clear!) Either Ford needs to make the range estimate more realistic, or update it faster based on that particular drive's data, or it needs to allow the user to override the Ford route and input the one that you want to drive, and merely dismiss a warning about "battery range exceeded" or whatever.

A range estimate, I think, needs to be accurate, and it should display, as does the Chevy Bolt, at least three numbers: the expected range, based upon the last drive(s), an optimistic range (based upon good, but not unrealistic, conditions), and a pessimistic range. And the nav system should allow me to override its predictions and enter the route that I want. I bought the car, I know what I'm doing, and I'm responsible for the towing charge if I end up dead on the side of the road.

Ford needs to change this. And soon. IMHO.
Can you tell us the route?
 
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silverelan

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Fast comment: as to conservative being good on range estimation, on my FE, it is a pain in the a$$.

Here's why: I have a specific, often driven trip, that exceeds the range estimate of the MME's software. But the car will do that range: I know it, because I can do math--2.5 mi/kwhr times 88 kwhr is more than the trip distance. I have done it. It's not a problem.

But in the MME, when you enter the destination, it demands that you make a DCFC stop, and it puts in a route which is much longer: a couple of hours longer in my case. And you can't override it. Even when you are halfway there, and the miles/kwhr and the SOC clearly show that your destination is in reach, the MME software won't allow you to display the route that you are driving, instead still insisting on the enormous detour that will be required to get to the nearest DCFC.

This is very irritating. (I love the car otherwise, but this sucks, to be clear!) Either Ford needs to make the range estimate more realistic, or update it faster based on that particular drive's data, or it needs to allow the user to override the Ford route and input the one that you want to drive, and merely dismiss a warning about "battery range exceeded" or whatever.

A range estimate, I think, needs to be accurate, and it should display, as does the Chevy Bolt, at least three numbers: the expected range, based upon the last drive(s), an optimistic range (based upon good, but not unrealistic, conditions), and a pessimistic range. And the nav system should allow me to override its predictions and enter the route that I want. I bought the car, I know what I'm doing, and I'm responsible for the towing charge if I end up dead on the side of the road.

Ford needs to change this. And soon. IMHO.
How far we talking here?
 

timbop

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Fast comment: as to conservative being good on range estimation, on my FE, it is a pain in the a$$.

Here's why: I have a specific, often driven trip, that exceeds the range estimate of the MME's software. But the car will do that range: I know it, because I can do math--2.5 mi/kwhr times 88 kwhr is more than the trip distance. I have done it. It's not a problem.

But in the MME, when you enter the destination, it demands that you make a DCFC stop, and it puts in a route which is much longer: a couple of hours longer in my case. And you can't override it. Even when you are halfway there, and the miles/kwhr and the SOC clearly show that your destination is in reach, the MME software won't allow you to display the route that you are driving, instead still insisting on the enormous detour that will be required to get to the nearest DCFC.

This is very irritating. (I love the car otherwise, but this sucks, to be clear!) Either Ford needs to make the range estimate more realistic, or update it faster based on that particular drive's data, or it needs to allow the user to override the Ford route and input the one that you want to drive, and merely dismiss a warning about "battery range exceeded" or whatever.

A range estimate, I think, needs to be accurate, and it should display, as does the Chevy Bolt, at least three numbers: the expected range, based upon the last drive(s), an optimistic range (based upon good, but not unrealistic, conditions), and a pessimistic range. And the nav system should allow me to override its predictions and enter the route that I want. I bought the car, I know what I'm doing, and I'm responsible for the towing charge if I end up dead on the side of the road.

Ford needs to change this. And soon. IMHO.
It might be a PITA to find, but there is definitely a NAV setting that says "automatically add charging points" or something like that. Fooling around in the screens while sitting in my driveway (don't judge) I found that setting.
 

jeffdawgfan

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Fast comment: as to conservative being good on range estimation, on my FE, it is a pain in the a$$.

Here's why: I have a specific, often driven trip, that exceeds the range estimate of the MME's software. But the car will do that range: I know it, because I can do math--2.5 mi/kwhr times 88 kwhr is more than the trip distance. I have done it. It's not a problem.

But in the MME, when you enter the destination, it demands that you make a DCFC stop, and it puts in a route which is much longer: a couple of hours longer in my case. And you can't override it. Even when you are halfway there, and the miles/kwhr and the SOC clearly show that your destination is in reach, the MME software won't allow you to display the route that you are driving, instead still insisting on the enormous detour that will be required to get to the nearest DCFC.

This is very irritating. (I love the car otherwise, but this sucks, to be clear!) Either Ford needs to make the range estimate more realistic, or update it faster based on that particular drive's data, or it needs to allow the user to override the Ford route and input the one that you want to drive, and merely dismiss a warning about "battery range exceeded" or whatever.

A range estimate, I think, needs to be accurate, and it should display, as does the Chevy Bolt, at least three numbers: the expected range, based upon the last drive(s), an optimistic range (based upon good, but not unrealistic, conditions), and a pessimistic range. And the nav system should allow me to override its predictions and enter the route that I want. I bought the car, I know what I'm doing, and I'm responsible for the towing charge if I end up dead on the side of the road.

Ford needs to change this. And soon. IMHO.
I liked that on my Bolt also. The Good, Expected, and Bad range. I usually got between the upper two.
 

Mirak

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Fast comment: as to conservative being good on range estimation, on my FE, it is a pain in the a$$.

Here's why: I have a specific, often driven trip, that exceeds the range estimate of the MME's software. But the car will do that range: I know it, because I can do math--2.5 mi/kwhr times 88 kwhr is more than the trip distance. I have done it. It's not a problem.

But in the MME, when you enter the destination, it demands that you make a DCFC stop, and it puts in a route which is much longer: a couple of hours longer in my case. And you can't override it. Even when you are halfway there, and the miles/kwhr and the SOC clearly show that your destination is in reach, the MME software won't allow you to display the route that you are driving, instead still insisting on the enormous detour that will be required to get to the nearest DCFC.

This is very irritating. (I love the car otherwise, but this sucks, to be clear!) Either Ford needs to make the range estimate more realistic, or update it faster based on that particular drive's data, or it needs to allow the user to override the Ford route and input the one that you want to drive, and merely dismiss a warning about "battery range exceeded" or whatever.

A range estimate, I think, needs to be accurate, and it should display, as does the Chevy Bolt, at least three numbers: the expected range, based upon the last drive(s), an optimistic range (based upon good, but not unrealistic, conditions), and a pessimistic range. And the nav system should allow me to override its predictions and enter the route that I want. I bought the car, I know what I'm doing, and I'm responsible for the towing charge if I end up dead on the side of the road.

Ford needs to change this. And soon. IMHO.
Sounds like a good reason to use Apple CarPlay.

(Actually I don’t know enough about what you lose when switching to CarPlay).
 

Mirak

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If you bought Ford a couple of months ago you would have doubled your money.
I bought 100 shares of F when I was making other buys about 9 months ago. I only bought the 100 for x-plan pricing. The doubling of the stock price was a nice side benefit.
 

ChasingCoral

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They are not going to let you drain the battery to absolute 0% as this is not very good for a Lithium Ion, or really any battery for that matter. Not sure what the basement battery buffer is but willing to bet at least 2-3 kwh remaining when reading 0%. One time, I drove my Bolt to 0% because the EvGo charger I planned on using was not working. I drove on about six miles and made it home. When I recharged I calculated that the battery actually still had about 5% capacity left at 0% indicated when I evaluated what the charger told me it put back into the battery. At 4.4 miles/kwh that means I still had 3.3 kwh or about 15 miles of range left at 0%. Figure this is pretty typical of all EV makers....excepting Tesla as they do not share a lot of information.
Yes but now you are talking about the 11 kWh reserve it also has.
 

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