Center audio sounds horrible

[OcSteve39]

My MME Premium is ~3 weeks old and so far I’m unimpressed with the B&O system. The center channel audio quality is weak at best, and frankly is surprising.

Is this unique to my vehicle or have others experienced similar?

If so, what have you done? Warranty claim at dealer? Replaced speaker on your own (and if so which kind?)?

Please advise.
Thanks

Marantz, B&O, Pioneer ect. All very good systems.
I have been down the rabbit hole on many.
Great speakers and calibration is varified correct and yet, this sounds like crapola!

Within Marantz, for instance, there is further tweaking available (speaker levels) per source.

For me, here's what I've found. Less is somethimes more.
Decrease the offending frequency and see if it "clarifies" to your perception.
Disgregard what the setting "is supposed to be"

Decrease to clarify. Yes, even bass.

Always consider the source material. I have played with the tone settings and accept the system for what it is (currently back to default).

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[azerik]

My MME Premium is ~3 weeks old and so far I’m unimpressed with the B&O system. The center channel audio quality is weak at best, and frankly is surprising.

Is this unique to my vehicle or have others experienced similar?

If so, what have you done? Warranty claim at dealer? Replaced speaker on your own (and if so which kind?)?

Please advise.
Thanks

If it's new take it in.
If you have an ODBII you can use ForScan and change the DSP settings of the system. BTW the recent audio update did seem to reset my previously adjusted DSP setting (Need to confirm but havn't had time)
Reset Sync (track forward vol down until it reboots)
toggle Stereo/ surround
I have my fader set to the floor of the rear seats. If it's dead center it's WAY too much center.

 

[Jnewton]

Do you go all the way to the back seat? Or somewhere between center and back?

Also can you take a photo of your treble, mid, and base or just tell me your levels for each?

I listen to a lot of 90s/2000s rock and alt/indie.

My 2 boys are digging imagine dragons these days and they don’t sound as good as they did in our Volvo.

Volvo has some of the best stereo systems regardless the base or the B&W upgrade. I’m sure the drop off in quality is sizable unfortunately.

 

[Aahhcc11]

Marantz, B&O, Pioneer ect. All very good systems.
I have been down the rabbit hole on many.
Great speakers and calibration is varified correct and yet, this sounds like crapola!

Within Marantz, for instance, there is further tweaking available (speaker levels) per source.

For me, here's what I've found. Less is somethimes more.
Decrease the offending frequency and see if it "clarifies" to your perception.
Disgregard what the setting "is supposed to be"

Decrease to clarify. Yes, even bass.

Always consider the source material. I have played with the tone settings and accept the system for what it is (currently back to default).

Thanks. I moved the

If it's new take it in.
If you have an ODBII you can use ForScan and change the DSP settings of the system. BTW the recent audio update did seem to reset my previously adjusted DSP setting (Need to confirm but havn't had time)
Reset Sync (track forward vol down until it reboots)
toggle Stereo/ surround
I have my fader set to the floor of the rear seats. If it's dead center it's WAY too much center.

That sounds interesting. Is the DSP info readily available on this forum?

I moved the fader to just in front of the back seat in the center and it sounds WORLDS better/

 

[Mach1E]

Unless I’m mistaken, the center channel isn’t used when set to stereo, only when in surround. May help you troubleshoot the issue.

They changed something for the 2023 models.

I had a 2023 GTPE loaner. Even in stereo mode the center channel was too loud.

 

[Snakebitten]

In the 18 speaker B&O unleashed F150, the center speaker draws similar complaints.
Someone popped the cover and unplugged it altogether just to take it out of the soundstage equation.

Didn't take long for others to try it themselves. I didn't hate the center speaker as much as some, but I agreed it messed with the stage enough to spend the 3 minutes to Unplug it and see for myself. (7mm socket and plastic prybar)

I never plugged it back in.

Wonder now about the Mach-E ?

 

[markboris]

In the 18 speaker B&O unleashed F150, the center speaker draws similar complaints.
Someone popped the cover and unplugged it altogether just to take it out of the soundstage equation.

Didn't take long for others to try it themselves. I didn't hate the center speaker as much as some, but I agreed it messed with the stage enough to spend the 3 minutes to Unplug it and see for myself. (7mm socket and plastic prybar)

I never plugged it back in.

Wonder now about the Mach-E ?

One of the first things I do after bringing home a new car (my last 4 cars) is disconnect the center speaker. In the “Stereo” mode the center speaker shouldn’t produce any audio but I disconnect it anyway. As you said, it messes up the soundstage and has no business being in a “Stereo” audio system.

How many here have a decent to high end audio system (not a theater surround sound system) at home? I guarantee none of you have a center channel. A center channel is for theater surround sound systems to anchor the voices and have clearer dialog. Sure you can use the “Surround” mode in the car which will use the center speaker, add more volume and delay to the rear speakers and change the entire soundstage but that’s not how it was intended to be listened to.

There’s nothing wrong with changing the sound settings (Stereo, Surround), EQ and fader settings to your liking. Everyone has a different set of ears and we all like are music to sound a bit different. I’m old school and like to listen to my music through a high quality two channel system at home. Unfortunately that’s not something we can do easily in a car since we don’t sit dead center and that right there messes up the soundstage/imaging. Adding to this a center channel and a surround mode just makes it worse, at least for me.

 

[azerik]

Thanks. I moved the


That sounds interesting. Is the DSP info readily available on this forum?

I moved the fader to just in front of the back seat in the center and it sounds WORLDS better/

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/forscan-mme-spreadsheet.24701/

 

[Aahhcc11]

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/forscan-mme-spreadsheet.24701/

Thanks, I assume this is mostly found on the APIM tab? What are some of the changes you have made to optimize your MME?

 

[azerik]

Thanks, I assume this is mostly found on the APIM tab? What are some of the changes you have made to optimize your MME?

That's all covered in that thread, it's a few pages of reading but pretty easy to understand and do. You'll need the $12 Forscan app to write anything.

 

[StuMc]

I'll add my two cents to this thread. I just changed out the center speaker on my B&O premium system and I'm really liking the results, but first, a little disclaimer is in order. I'm a home high-end audio two channel guy and definitely not a car audio expert. I've been a senior associate editor for www.positive-feedback.com since the early 90's and the sum total of my car audio reviews equals zero. I do, however, know a thing or two about audio and particularly what sounds good to me. So take the rest of this with the appropriate grain of salt.

I've ordered a subwoofer to install in the back deck, but as I'm waiting for a few parts to come in, I decided to order a replacement center channel and do the very quick and easy installation. I ordered a pair of the Kenwood Excelon KFC-X3C from Crutchfield for a modest $79 and recieved them in two days. Why did I choose this one, you might ask. Well, there were some very definite reasons. Crutchfield says it fits perfectly, the sound quality of this two way is well regarded and it features a silk dome tweeter ( I have usually found silk domes to be friendlier to my old ears), but the big reason is 4 ohm resistance with a very low 83db sensitivity (1w/1m). The low sensitivity is really the key here. The stock B&O one piece paper cone driver is undoubtedly a higher sensitivity (I looked but couldn't find the spec on it) given the simplicity of its design. The problem I heard with the B&O system (besides the lousy bass) is that the center speaker is playing just too darn loud in surround mode, such that it spoils the center imaging and doesn't blend well at all with the rest of the speakers. Even in stereo mode it's still playing, albeit at a slightly lower level, and again the classic two channel center imaging suffers.

Here's where the low sensitivity Kenwood Excelon comes in and saves the day. Installation was a breeze. I swapped out the stock speakers cable attachment so that I could plug the Excelon into the stock wiring. I used the included foam tape to dampen the top and bottom edges of the speaker basket so that it fit snugly in the stock hole with no vibrations. I even added some dampening compound to the back of the magnet and to the basket frame to kill any stray vibrations. I buttoned her up and gave it a short break-in period (just a few hours playing fairly loud in surround mode) and then did some critical listening. Oh, just a note on what I listen to and what a difference it makes in my overall enjoyment - I stream Qobuz using a wired usb connection to Andoid Auto. This gives me better sound then using bluetooth and If I'm not mistaken, the wired usb mode with Qobuz may allow you to exceed AA's default down sampling to 16 bits and 44.1 khz (although certainly not 24 bit 196khz). My other source is a usb flash drive that has very high resolution FLAC files. This is another small step above the Qobuz feed, but nothing major. Using either of these sources sounds waaay better than Sirius XM or the built in FM reciever and takes the stock B&O system from sounding very ho-hum, to not too bad.

I'll cut to the chase. The Excelon speaker blends incredibly well with the dash tweets and the other stock speakers. It has a similar tonality with a considerably more unfatiguing definition. It is no longer overpowering. I can now listen comfortably to surround mode and there is a good spread across the front stage. The center channel no longer stands up, waves it hands in the air and says listen to me. It's now subtle and blended. The surround mode is now quite immersive, the way it should be. Stereo mode now has a lot more seperation left and right as you would expect with the center channel playing at a much lower level. I think I know why B&O mixed in the center channel even in stereo mode. They may have had the right idea, but overshot the results by a big margin. When you mix in just a little center channel with stereo mode, you get a nice arc with the front stage and a little less of the headphone effect that often seems to plague the car environment. There is definitley more going on in Surround mode than just boosting the center channel, but I won't get into that now. I do have a full-on test mic and REW software on my laptop, but I feel ill-prepared to use it in the car audio realm. Suffice it to say, the surround mode that was formerly unlistenable is now quite possibly my favorite listening mode. I've had to change my Beosonic and Equalizer settings to dial it in, but by golly, its really sounding good.

Next up is the subwoofer install.

Hey, if anyone is interested, I can sell you the remaining Excelon speaker for $35, which includes the ride. I used up all the foam tape, so you'll have to pick up some at your local hardware store. Send me a PM if you would like it. I'd enjoy hearing someone else's thoughts on the results.

 

[ESJB]

I do have a full-on test mic and REW software on my laptop, but I feel ill-prepared to use it in the car audio realm. Suffice it to say, the surround mode that was formerly unlistenable is now quite possibly my favorite listening mode.

First, this is a really cool post and I really enjoyed reading it, cheers!

Regarding the test mic and REW. I'm inexperienced in this stuff too, but I set up the mic in my car (with B&O system) and clicked the analyse button, just to see what I could see.

What I saw surprised me. Except for a few dips and peaks in the response, it fairly well matched the "standard" Harman frequency response curve (or my case the Audiofrog version). Should have taken a screenshot. I'm even guessing that the deviations were probably due to my test procedure, and that Ford's intention was to tune to the curve. Even the sub-bass was a match down to about 40Hz.

In hindsight it shouldn't be surprising -- that's why these systems have a DSP, so we can tune to targets.

But to improve the audio, it's not the tonality or frequency response that's far wrong. It must be the other technicalities: how Ford mixes the centre speaker, or does time correction (or not), or the speed/response/resolution of the speakers etc.

Because hitting the target curve with cheap plastic speakers just means now you're listening to well-tuned cheap plastic speakers... (N.B. ok, I admit some of the speakers aren't plastic, but they're still cheap!)

 

[StuMc]

First, this is a really cool post and I really enjoyed reading it, cheers!

Regarding the test mic and REW. I'm inexperienced in this stuff too, but I set up the mic in my car (with B&O system) and clicked the analyse button, just to see what I could see.

What I saw surprised me. Except for a few dips and peaks in the response, it fairly well matched the "standard" Harman frequency response curve (or my case the Audiofrog version). Should have taken a screenshot. I'm even guessing that the deviations were probably due to my test procedure, and that Ford's intention was to tune to the curve. Even the sub-bass was a match down to about 40Hz.

In hindsight it shouldn't be surprising -- that's why these systems have a DSP, so we can tune to targets.

But to improve the audio, it's not the tonality or frequency response that's far wrong. It must be the other technicalities: how Ford mixes the centre speaker, or does time correction (or not), or the speed/response/resolution of the speakers etc.

Because hitting the target curve with cheap plastic speakers just means now you're listening to well-tuned cheap plastic speakers... (N.B. ok, I admit some of the speakers aren't plastic, but they're still cheap!)

It doesn't surprise me that Ford/B&O were able to milk decent sound out of some very basic budget drivers. That is what DSP does best. The DSP chips are cheap these days and they save lots of money by using a DSP amplifer and going cheap on the drivers. When I looked more closely at the drivers, I was even more impressed with how well the stock system performs.

I understand why many folks prefer to just disconnect the center driver. It really is a bottom drawer driver and whoever programmed the DSP for the other drivers did a crappy job blending the sound levels of the speakers driven by the front head unit. If I understand this correctly, the DSP equipped B&O amplifier only drives the door speakers and the subwoofer, while the dash tweeters and center speaker are powered by the front head unit. This is, to me, a fundamental flaw in the system. I agree with you that they might have tuned pretty well to a target frequency response curve, but that wouldn't account for transient responses, time corrections, or how dominant the center speaker is. If it was all controlled and powered by the same DSP amplifier (and one with accessible tuning parameters), you could dial this all in like a champ. That would sure beat my caveman approach of picking a low sensitivity center speaker and hoping I got the levels right.

The limitations of our stock system and having a fixed, pre-tuned DSP amplifier makes it a real crap shoot when all you are doing is swapping out the stock drivers for higher quality ones. I would guess that in most cases it won't sound much better and may in fact sound worse. I got lucky with the Kenwood Excelon driver.

 

[rreddy3]

I'll add my two cents to this thread. I just changed out the center speaker on my B&O premium system and I'm really liking the results, but first, a little disclaimer is in order. I'm a home high-end audio two channel guy and definitely not a car audio expert. I've been a senior associate editor for www.positive-feedback.com since the early 90's and the sum total of my car audio reviews equals zero. I do, however, know a thing or two about audio and particularly what sounds good to me. So take the rest of this with the appropriate grain of salt.

I've ordered a subwoofer to install in the back deck, but as I'm waiting for a few parts to come in, I decided to order a replacement center channel and do the very quick and easy installation. I ordered a pair of the Kenwood Excelon KFC-X3C from Crutchfield for a modest $79 and recieved them in two days. Why did I choose this one, you might ask. Well, there were some very definite reasons. Crutchfield says it fits perfectly, the sound quality of this two way is well regarded and it features a silk dome tweeter ( I have usually found silk domes to be friendlier to my old ears), but the big reason is 4 ohm resistance with a very low 83db sensitivity (1w/1m). The low sensitivity is really the key here. The stock B&O one piece paper cone driver is undoubtedly a higher sensitivity (I looked but couldn't find the spec on it) given the simplicity of its design. The problem I heard with the B&O system (besides the lousy bass) is that the center speaker is playing just too darn loud in surround mode, such that it spoils the center imaging and doesn't blend well at all with the rest of the speakers. Even in stereo mode it's still playing, albeit at a slightly lower level, and again the classic two channel center imaging suffers.

Here's where the low sensitivity Kenwood Excelon comes in and saves the day. Installation was a breeze. I swapped out the stock speakers cable attachment so that I could plug the Excelon into the stock wiring. I used the included foam tape to dampen the top and bottom edges of the speaker basket so that it fit snugly in the stock hole with no vibrations. I even added some dampening compound to the back of the magnet and to the basket frame to kill any stray vibrations. I buttoned her up and gave it a short break-in period (just a few hours playing fairly loud in surround mode) and then did some critical listening. Oh, just a note on what I listen to and what a difference it makes in my overall enjoyment - I stream Qobuz using a wired usb connection to Andoid Auto. This gives me better sound then using bluetooth and If I'm not mistaken, the wired usb mode with Qobuz may allow you to exceed AA's default down sampling to 16 bits and 44.1 khz (although certainly not 24 bit 196khz). My other source is a usb flash drive that has very high resolution FLAC files. This is another small step above the Qobuz feed, but nothing major. Using either of these sources sounds waaay better than Sirius XM or the built in FM reciever and takes the stock B&O system from sounding very ho-hum, to not too bad.

I'll cut to the chase. The Excelon speaker blends incredibly well with the dash tweets and the other stock speakers. It has a similar tonality with a considerably more unfatiguing definition. It is no longer overpowering. I can now listen comfortably to surround mode and there is a good spread across the front stage. The center channel no longer stands up, waves it hands in the air and says listen to me. It's now subtle and blended. The surround mode is now quite immersive, the way it should be. Stereo mode now has a lot more seperation left and right as you would expect with the center channel playing at a much lower level. I think I know why B&O mixed in the center channel even in stereo mode. They may have had the right idea, but overshot the results by a big margin. When you mix in just a little center channel with stereo mode, you get a nice arc with the front stage and a little less of the headphone effect that often seems to plague the car environment. There is definitley more going on in Surround mode than just boosting the center channel, but I won't get into that now. I do have a full-on test mic and REW software on my laptop, but I feel ill-prepared to use it in the car audio realm. Suffice it to say, the surround mode that was formerly unlistenable is now quite possibly my favorite listening mode. I've had to change my Beosonic and Equalizer settings to dial it in, but by golly, its really sounding good.

Next up is the subwoofer install.

Hey, if anyone is interested, I can sell you the remaining Excelon speaker for $35, which includes the ride. I used up all the foam tape, so you'll have to pick up some at your local hardware store. Send me a PM if you would like it. I'd enjoy hearing someone else's thoughts on the results.

I made the exact same center speaker change you made, including switching over the connector. I bought the speaker from a member who had bought the Kenwood two pack and changed out his center speaker, leaving him with the extra one to sell.

I enjoy music but have pretty much a tin ear. High end systems are more or less lost on me. That said, the Kenwood center speaker is a nice change and makes things sound much nicer, even to my tin ears. In addition I recently got Beosonic up and running compliments of pal who knows how to work that magic.

I’ve also borrowed the trick others have spoken of, of moving the fader more to the rear to get a bit more base from the “sub base” that lives in the fender. I am toying with the idea of a small powered sub that draws < 20A that can be powered off the outlet in the trunk area. That’s not urgent and may never happen. We’ll see.

As OP says above, this center speaker switch out is a really simple, easy change to make. It adds positive value out of proportion to the cost and effort of the job.

 

[Ahlarict]

I am toying with the idea of a small powered sub that draws < 20A that can be powered off the outlet in the trunk area. That’s not urgent and may never happen. We’ll see.

This 8" RF powered sub\amp unit fits your stated criteria - I'm rather pleased with the resulting improvement:

Really appreciate the inspiration and knowledge shared here! Thank you all, and especially the OP @markboris. I went with the Rockford-Fosgate “Punch” 8” vented and powered 300w RMS sub-woofer. It seems to be a reasonable match for the B&O components, the available space under the load floor (even in the low position), the undiscriminating nature of my uneducated aging ears, and the amount of money and time I was interested in spending on the project to add “just a little bit more bass” to a system I was otherwise mostly happy with.

Since it’s only a 20amp unit and the rear 12v is already on a switched and fused 20amp circuit, I just used posi-taps in that corner to tap the power and high-level inputs, while leaving the B&O 6x9 connected to continue contributing some mid and grounding to an existing body ground bolt behind the same panel. Easy-peasy! Plenty of thump to allow me to feel the music in my heart without creating "medically significant" decibel pressures or requiring extensive disassembly of the vehicle!

For not investing in additional sound deadening or "prep of the sound stage" (beyond the removal of the stock Styrofoam and application of velcro to the bottom of the enclosure), I was pleasantly surprised with the lack of rattle and distortion back there even at what I consider to be higher output levels. With 860w total now (560w B&O+300w RF sub), I think it has ended up sounding pretty darn adequate!

I secured the remote knob to the console using a bit of Gorilla Putty (it seems to do a good job of staying stuck until you want to be unstuck, then it's entirely removable without trace).

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