Consumer Preference for ICE

Stevey

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I agree the survey does appear accurate. EVs and the associated charging infrastructure are still young in their development but are improving very quickly. While on the cusp of wide acceptance they still have a long way to go. Let me share a real world example to demonstrate the challenges. You can skip the details, if you want, and go straight to the summary below.

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We own a '15 Honda Odyssey and has about 480mi of range on a tank of gas, a Mach E Standard range RWD, and we owned a VW ID4 (swapped for Mach E). We make a trip of ~580mi (1160mi round trip) 4 or 5 time per year. You may argue that there are not a lot of families/people with that challenge, and you would be correct; however, there are enough families/people that have at least 1 of those types of trips to make this relevant. Using the Honda the trip take about 9 hours with a single fuel stop. Using the ID4 the same trip takes about 10 hours. Using the Mach E about 11.5 hours. That is ~7.5hr (driving time) + time for Bathroom, Food and Fuel/Charging. As you can see we are not shooting for a "cannonball run" type drive. While not exactly true we will remove the drive time from the equation since they all should be roughly the same. While the ID 4 (~250mi) and the Mach E(~230mi) have similar ranges you may ask why does the Mach E take so much longer. Plane and simple “CHARGING CURVE"(I am looking at you Ford).

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Fueling/Charging Curve (what we saw) and stops. The way we break it down is ~60min (for food) and 2 (15min) breaks/bathroom so about 1hr 30min. Since we can refuel in 15 min and eat in the car we can significantly cut into that time, but who really wants to do that with a family and not in a rush. What about charging stops? Well that is a little different story. Charging stops are simply a time suck. Theoretically you would charge to 80%, or what is need to get to the next stop, and be on your way but when traveling with a family that is a different story. For us each stop typically takes 60min (1 hr). One of the stops comes out in the wash since it involves food, but this works to the ID4's advantage. Since 80% to 100% is only an additional 20 (60min total) we are able to get the full ~245min. The Mach E on the other hand is still trying to get to 80% within those extra 20 minutes and only has 15min of the extra 20min left to add above 80%. That only nets an extra 8 miles. Wait you say, The Mach E has a max DC Charge rate of 150KW but ID4 has 125KW. That is true but because Ford Engineers decide to nerf the charging curve that advantage lasts about 5 min, and that is for 0% to 80%. Above 80% that drops to 11KW while the ID4 keeps trucking at 30-40KW to 90% and then starts a gradual charge rate reduction, unlike the Mach E that falls of a cliff at %80.

Odyssey (3 Stop)(90min)
0-100% 12min ~480mi

ID4 (3 Stops) (*120min)
0-80% 38min ~200mi
80-100% 60min ~245mi

Mach E (4 stops) (*240min)
0-80% 45min ~ 184mi
80-100 123min ~ 230mi

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Cost:
When using the ID4 the extra hour was tolerable and the charging was free (3yr Electrify America). Using the Mach E was not quite as fun and the charging was not cheap (580 mi/3.0 k/mi ~ 193.9 KW * $0.42 ~ $81.44). However, cost really isn't a factor for us since I am only paying for it 4 to 5 times per year, but other people might take that into account

Odyssey
$63

ID4
Free (Electrify America)

Mach E
$81.44 (Electrify America)
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Summary:

The ID4 was an excellent road tripping car and a very viable replacement for the Odyssey. If it had ~325mi of range in this limited scenario, it completely replaces the Odyssey and would take the same time. The Mach E is a different story. This truly highlights the need for the extended range Mach E and how the charging curve is what really matters. In Ford's defense they have release software update to improve the charging curve, but in my case I have not received any updates, so I can only work with what I got. For the average family making this trip to ask them to add an additional 4 hours is a non-starter (and that assumes no hiccups). It is this reality that is reflected in this survey. The good news is that, that reality will change sooner that rather than later.

Why did we trade the ID4 for the Mach E? Well ... that is another story :)
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RickMachE

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The problem with this type of a survey is that a great many people are clueless about EVs.

We have friends who are engineers, and they barely know about it. I took them for a ride in the car and they were astonished. Then I hooked a U-turn and hit the pedal and they had their breath taken away. Now they are considering one.
 

Kevin P

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We have friends who are engineers, and they barely know about it. I took them for a ride in the car and they were astonished. Then I hooked a U-turn and hit the pedal and they had their breath taken away. Now they are considering one.
Same for me. One of the first people I took for a ride was a tech-head who was clueless on BEVs. We were trolling through his large neighborhood and he said "it seems nice, but aren't you afraid its slow?" I just smiled. He was shocked when I pulled out on the main road and gave it the beans. I think he literally yelled "holy SH%T"
 

deadduck

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I rarely do planned road-trip, but, sometimes I just say F-IT, and decide to do something stupid that goes 300+ miles.

Whether you like it or not, there is an extra cognitive load with planning for an EV, instead of going, and getting gas almost anywhere I want to. on however full the tank is, gotta plan to do that a bit more with an EV.

On the other hand, no more once/week visit to the gas station.
 


RickMachE

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I rarely do planned road-trip, but, sometimes I just say F-IT, and decide to do something stupid that goes 300+ miles.

Whether you like it or not, there is an extra cognitive load with planning for an EV, instead of going, and getting gas almost anywhere I want to. on however full the tank is, gotta plan to do that a bit more with an EV.

On the other hand, no more once/week visit to the gas station.
"Cognitive Load" is a new one on me. This forum keeps teaching me things. ?
 

Timelessblur

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Nissan Altima easily, add some Hondas in there. People still look at. They can fill a tank that goes 400 mi in the matter of 3 minutes versus a DC fast charge that still takes what 20 minutes+ that is if there are any near you and it gets you 200 miles. Maybe a little more. Plain simple. There's just not enough chargers yet to get a lot of people to sway. And trucks the pull stuff. It's going to be hard to sway that once you start pulling with these EVs, it's going to be interesting to see what the battery life is pulling boats or heavy trailers. I know I would not get EV truck to pull my boat 9 hours to Kentucky. Trying to wiggle that thing in the parking lots that charge it. No thanks
My problem that that 3 min vs DC speed is on a road trip where you are refilling to move on is I am goign to call the 3 min complete and utter BS. The 3 mins only apply to refilling around town which in that case you should be charging at home so the charge time does not matter.
on a road trip when people stop for gas they tend to also try to combine it any how with bathroom, and food. Add up the that entire time and all of a sudden DC fast charging is no as slow. It OMG about the same damn speed.

The road warrior BS people give is exactly that Bull shit. Most people do not do that. They stop, fill up car, then bathroom, snack and so on. With DC fast charging it is plug in your car and go do those things while it is charging. I know when I was stopping at bucees driving long distance my Buccee stop was at best 20-30 mins. It went gas then go inside order food, bathroom, then pick up food and head out. That entire process took 20-30 mins. If it was DC fast charging now it would go there, plug in car, walk inside and repeat. About the same time I would normally get back to my car the DC fast charging would be finished. Hell I might slow down a little but still it a difference of sub 5 mins.
 

ChrisSJR

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I ordered and want the MME primarily as a local area car (i.e. 100 nm radius). When it comes time to replace my wife's ICE Acura RDX in about 4 years I think maybe a PHEV which has about 100 nm of electric only range would be a good option for long range travel. That's assuming a car makers continue to increase PHEV electric only range. I hope they do!
 
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Over 90% of the people that I associate with think I've gone over to the "dark side" by purchasing an BEV. If our local Diablo Canyon nuclear plant wasn't being forced to shut down in 2025, many more of my friends would be in favor of purchasing an EV. I feel very fortunate that my circumstances (location, transportation needs, existing solar power, etc) make owning a Mach-E a no-brainer, but this doesn't apply to the vast majority of the population. Our second vehicle will always have an ICE (currently an RDX) or be a plug-in hybrid, even if that means we have to go out of state to purchase one.
 

DevSecOps

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My problem that that 3 min vs DC speed is on a road trip where you are refilling to move on is I am goign to call the 3 min complete and utter BS. The 3 mins only apply to refilling around town which in that case you should be charging at home so the charge time does not matter.
on a road trip when people stop for gas they tend to also try to combine it any how with bathroom, and food. Add up the that entire time and all of a sudden DC fast charging is no as slow. It OMG about the same damn speed.

The road warrior BS people give is exactly that Bull shit. Most people do not do that. They stop, fill up car, then bathroom, snack and so on. With DC fast charging it is plug in your car and go do those things while it is charging. I know when I was stopping at bucees driving long distance my Buccee stop was at best 20-30 mins. It went gas then go inside order food, bathroom, then pick up food and head out. That entire process took 20-30 mins. If it was DC fast charging now it would go there, plug in car, walk inside and repeat. About the same time I would normally get back to my car the DC fast charging would be finished. Hell I might slow down a little but still it a difference of sub 5 mins.
Damn that was hard to read...

How about the person (me) that has to drive 3 hours each way for work about once a week in a single day? 6 hours of driving in total.

With ICE I do not stop at all. With the MME I have to stop 3 times. I have to drive off the beaten path by 10 miles each direction. It adds 3 hours to my already 6 hour drive.

Think outside the box a little there turbo.
 

MachTee

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Over 90% of the people that I associate with think I've gone over to the "dark side" by purchasing an BEV. If our local Diablo Canyon nuclear plant wasn't being forced to shut down in 2025, many more of my friends would be in favor of purchasing an EV. I feel very fortunate that my circumstances (location, transportation needs, existing solar power, etc) make owning a Mach-E a no-brainer, but this doesn't apply to the vast majority of the population. Our second vehicle will always have an ICE (currently an RDX) or be a plug-in hybrid, even if that means we have to go out of state to purchase one.
I'm with you on that. My other two cars besides the MME are in fact a hybrid and a plug in hybrid. It's been very cold here in the past week, mid-teens in the morning. In these conditions I actually prefer to drive those two cars. The PHEV is actually cheaper to operate than the MME with gas and electricity factored in. In the spring and summer, it actually costs the same $0.04 (gas and electricity combined) or so per mile as a BEV if I had to pay for electricity. I also have a solar system that 100% offsets my usage.

I'm not surprised by that survey. Home charging is not feasible or possible for everyone, and I'm sure most aren't even aware the big loss in range in the cold. All this talk of ICE going away in the not so distant future I really don't see happening. I'm actually considering trading the hybrid for another PHEV, having left a deposit on one back in July, just waiting for it to be built.
 

Logal727

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My Hyundai Ioniq that I traded in for my MME got over 600 miles on a tank at 55mpg+
yeah, my wife's car is a 2019 Ioniq and it's amazing at fuel economy. I'd still rather never ever visit a gas station again though.
 

Logal727

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Clearly there is demand, Tesla is selling like crazy, Ford is selling like crazy and once more chargers get built up, it will increase from there. I've sold so many Mach-Es just talking to people about it and answering their questions about EVs.
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