Decided to cancelled Mach E for a Model Y

[voxel]

I’m a long time VW fan. I’ve owned many different models over the years. One thing they’ve all had in common is electrical glitches that made no sense. This and the boring nature of the ID4 are what kept me away from it

Yup. Sometimes reputations are deserved. My new Tesla has the infamous panel gaps in 4-5 places. This was a demo model that probably got rejected.... lol

However the entire driving experience is flawless. Literally. Any idiot can drive and charge a Tesla with almost no training. ID.4 doesn't even have auto-hold. It rolls back if you let go of the brake. Supposedly this is fixed in the next OTA update that is available in Europe but the US uses a different delivery system (Car-Net vs. WeConnect?). ID.4 public charging is disaster. I blame EA and EVGo who don't give a crap.

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[dbsb3233]

Yup. Sometimes reputations are deserved. My new Tesla has the infamous panel gaps in 4-5 places. This was a demo model that probably got rejected.... lol

However the entire driving experience is flawless. Literally. Any idiot can drive and charge a Tesla with almost no training. ID.4 doesn't even have auto-hold. It rolls back if you let go of the brake. Supposedly this is fixed in the next OTA update that is available in Europe but the US uses a different delivery system (Car-Net vs. WeConnect?). ID.4 public charging is disaster. I blame EA and EVGo who don't give a crap.

EA has been a solid B+ for me (~45 charges this year), but that's in my Mach-E. Maybe the ID4 is struggling more?

I've never left an EA station without a charge. But I have had a variety of issues maybe 20% of the time that cause me to make a 2nd or 3rd attempt. That was usually using the EA app though. I started using Plug&Charge in August and nearly every EA charge has been perfect since.

I keep hearing "disaster" descriptions but my rather extensive experiences in CO/UT/NV/CA/AZ/NM have been pretty good.

 

[voxel]

EA has been a solid B+ for me (~45 charges this year), but that's in my Mach-E. Maybe the ID4 is struggling more?

I've never left an EA station without a charge. But I have had a variety of issues maybe 20% of the time that cause me to make a 2nd or 3rd attempt. That was usually using the EA app though. I started using Plug&Charge in August and nearly every EA charge has been perfect since.

I keep hearing "disaster" descriptions but my rather extensive experiences in CO/UT/NV/CA/AZ/NM have been pretty good.

Before this week, I would have graded it "B" (I can exit the car, plugin, and start an EA charge - within 15 seconds) too but after a week with the supercharger system... why is CCS1 DC charging so complicated? It's a "D+" to me. Any technologically illiterate grandmother could charge at a Tesla station. Literally Plug and Charge. It should work the first time, all the time, no questions.

Last weekend, a woman in a used BMW i3 struggled to charge at an EA station. She bought it the day before. We tried all stations. They all failed to initiate the charge. Why? Who knows. Her credit cards weren't accepted? I used my free ID.4 pass but that failed too. We had to tag team with her nudging the charger head upwards (I heard the same by ID.4 - there's some communication pins on the J-1772 section that need to be in contact) while I swiped by free EA pass against the charger. Why is CCS1 charging so finicky? Broken stations? Buggy software? Poor design of the CCS1 connector?

 

[dbsb3233]

Before this week, I would have graded it "B" (I can exit the car, plugin, and start an EA charge - within 15 seconds) too but after a week with the supercharger system... why is CCS1 DC charging so complicated? It's a "D+" to me. Any technologically illiterate grandmother could charge at a Tesla station. Literally Plug and Charge. It should work the first time, all the time, no questions.

Last weekend, a woman in a used BMW i3 struggled to charge at an EA station. She bought it the day before. We tried all stations. They all failed to initiate the charge. Why? Who knows. Her credit cards weren't accepted? I used my free ID.4 pass but that failed too. We had to tag team with her nudging the charger head upwards (I heard the same by ID.4 - there's some communication pins on the J-1772 section that need to be in contact) while I swiped by free EA pass against the charger. Why is CCS1 charging so finicky? Broken stations? Buggy software? Poor design of the CCS1 connector?

That doesn't mean CCS isn't still a B, it just means Tesla's proprietary system on their own proprietary cars is an A. Yes, it's much easier to get it all to work on only your own cars, and they've been at it longer to perfect the (limited) process. Sort of like closed-system ioS apps vs Android apps that have to work on a wide variety of 3rd party phones.

And the issue with the i3 example you describe sounds specific to the i3.

Why is it so complicated?... mostly because it needs to be universal, as I noted. And it's really not all that complicated when it works. With P&C set up, I just plug in and in a half minute or so it starts charging. Yes, it's a pain when it doesn't work cleanly though. Lots of different manufacturers, lots of different thermal management systems, lots of different charge curves, lots of different charging networks and hardware. Even EA alone has multiple types of hardware. That's a negative, although I usually still get both to work. It does complicate it though. Proprietary closed systems are way easier than universal ones.

 

[dbonsett]

Wish everyone well with the Mach E. Was able to test drive a Model Y today and it was really nice. Between proven OTA updates, 250kw charging, Supercharger network, and 300+ range, decided to go for it. I would love to also test drive a Mach E, but seems like that is not happening anytime soon. I'm sure the Mach E will be great, but for 50k I am nervous about all the "firsts" by ford. First OTA, first car on this new platform, first with this online sales model. I also think folks underestimate the dealers ability to service a new EV. My Volt was always problematic at the dealer, they would say, oh the EV guy is not here today, etc. They will only see a handful of these for quite some time and yours will be the one they learn on. Hopefully over a few years that will change. Good luck everyone!

My wife got wind of my Mach E Performance and ordered her a Model Y. Both say April. I bet Tesla gets hers sooner. Will be fun to have both. Hers is a business lease. Mine cash. Fingers crossed.

 

[deadduck]

Yup. Sometimes reputations are deserved. My new Tesla has the infamous panel gaps in 4-5 places. This was a demo model that probably got rejected.... lol

However the entire driving experience is flawless. Literally. Any idiot can drive and charge a Tesla with almost no training. ID.4 doesn't even have auto-hold. It rolls back if you let go of the brake. Supposedly this is fixed in the next OTA update that is available in Europe but the US uses a different delivery system (Car-Net vs. WeConnect?). ID.4 public charging is disaster. I blame EA and EVGo who don't give a crap.

Worth noting that MY prices just went up by $2k.

The problem with the gaps, and Tesla's is sometimes that means doors won't even open. Panel gaps by themselves don't worry me, but on a Tesla they do because of the rest of the problems. They do seem to keep running once they get themselves sorted out.

Probably the biggest MY concern I have is the ride quality. Lot of rough roads in these parts.

 

[voxel]

That doesn't mean CCS isn't still a B, it just means Tesla's proprietary system on their own proprietary cars is an A. Yes, it's much easier to get it all to work on only your own cars, and they've been at it longer to perfect the (limited) process. Sort of like closed-system ioS apps vs Android apps that have to work on a wide variety of 3rd party phones.

And the issue with the i3 example you describe sounds specific to the i3.

Why is it so complicated?... mostly because it needs to be universal, as I noted. And it's really not all that complicated when it works. With P&C set up, I just plug in and in a half minute or so it starts charging. Yes, it's a pain when it doesn't work cleanly though. Lots of different manufacturers, lots of different thermal management systems, lots of different charge curves, lots of different charging networks and hardware. Even EA alone has multiple types of hardware. That's a negative, although I usually still get both to work. It does complicate it though. Proprietary closed systems are way easier than universal ones.

While I've had 15+ successful EA charges in my first 6 weeks of ID.4 ownership, there have been instances of frustration where 3+ chargers were not working and yet the apps says they are.

I personally think Tesla should spin off the supercharger network into a separate public company and open their connector (which is smaller and proven) and network up to other EV makers. EV charging is a money losing business anyhow (see EVGo and ChargePoint financials) and I don't expect EA to survive without a hundreds of millions of dollars after the VW settlement runs out. Financially these charging companies are just bleeding out the ass and a separate Supercharging company with a reliable system would dominate and be able to make money on the hardware and commercial fleet charging services (which I think one of EVGo or ChargePoint is aiming for). In Europe, I watch Bjorn videos and see broken charger after broken charger so it's not just an US thing.

 

[voxel]

Probably the biggest MY concern I have is the ride quality. Lot of rough roads in these parts.

My new MYLR definitely has a rougher ride than the smooth ID.4 but that's due to the suspension. The body roll is much worse on the ID.4 which handles like a steel boat in hard turns but rides like a couch otherwise.

To me Tesla is the "Toyota of EV drivetrains" - the motor/battery/charging systems (car and network) is reliable. So few complaints and any issues are obvious battery cell or motor failures that are fixed by Tesla service. Tesla has severe issues with car prices, styling, and human factors (like being obsessed with no physical controls). It's why I didn't look at them first but after my unpleasant EV experience with the ID.4 I decided to give them a try. I still am aiming for Mach-E in Cyber Orange... but I will temper my expectations.

If you've ever test rode a Mach-E... the acceleration and braking are not completely linear (braking can be harsh)... I like that but others may not. It's like firm suspension/rides - it's a love/hate thing. The Model 3, Y, and ID.4 all have very linear/smooth acceleration and braking to stop. Shrug. I stay away from stop and go traffic so I don't care.

 

[deadduck]

If you've ever test rode a Mach-E... the acceleration and braking are not completely linear (braking can be harsh)... I like that but others may not. It's like firm suspension/rides - it's a love/hate thing. The Model 3, Y, and ID.4 all have very linear/smooth acceleration and braking to stop. Shrug. I stay away from stop and go traffic so I don't care.

I've ridden in a MY, test driven a MME. I agree on the brakes. I didn't like it, particularly at slower speeds. I spend a chunk of my commute moving at less than 5 mph so the braking did worry me.

But all cars have strengths and weaknesses. Even when they seem to not to, like maybe the EV6/Ioniq 5, there's still something, in their case, the dealer network. The Q4 is still the only one that I haven't been able to find some sort of negative with, except it's the big brother of the ID.4.

 

[dbonsett]

Wish everyone well with the Mach E. Was able to test drive a Model Y today and it was really nice. Between proven OTA updates, 250kw charging, Supercharger network, and 300+ range, decided to go for it. I would love to also test drive a Mach E, but seems like that is not happening anytime soon. I'm sure the Mach E will be great, but for 50k I am nervous about all the "firsts" by ford. First OTA, first car on this new platform, first with this online sales model. I also think folks underestimate the dealers ability to service a new EV. My Volt was always problematic at the dealer, they would say, oh the EV guy is not here today, etc. They will only see a handful of these for quite some time and yours will be the one they learn on. Hopefully over a few years that will change. Good luck everyone!

We bought one of each. Both ETA April. Wife the Model Y long range, me a GTP. I bet the Tesla gets here sooner than mine.

 

[frontrunner]

My only concern with Tesla is that most real world tests have shown that Tesla has significantly exaggerated their range estimates. The Mach E, on the other hand, has either come very close to the advertised range, or surpassed it during the same testing time, location, and conditions as the Tesla. I respect Ford for that. The $7500 federal tax credit is big as well, as the Mach E will quality for it for some time but Tesla currently does not unless the feds give all the companies another round of rebates.

But I think the Tesla Y is a nice car and anyone that likes a Mach E would most likely enjoy the Y. It's all in what you like.

 

[dbsb3233]

While I've had 15+ successful EA charges in my first 6 weeks of ID.4 ownership, there have been instances of frustration where 3+ chargers were not working and yet the apps says they are.

I personally think Tesla should spin off the supercharger network into a separate public company and open their connector (which is smaller and proven) and network up to other EV makers. EV charging is a money losing business anyhow (see EVGo and ChargePoint financials) and I don't expect EA to survive without a hundreds of millions of dollars after the VW settlement runs out. Financially these charging companies are just bleeding out the ass and a separate Supercharging company with a reliable system would dominate and be able to make money on the hardware and commercial fleet charging services (which I think one of EVGo or ChargePoint is aiming for). In Europe, I watch Bjorn videos and see broken charger after broken charger so it's not just an US thing.

Reports are that Tesla will eventually open up their Supercharger network to handle CCS. CCS is already the industry standard connector/protocol though. The Tesla connector is the outlier, and the one that will get displaced eventually.

When Tesla finally offers CCS service, they will run into many of the same problems EA does now though -- serving many different auto manufacturers, charge curves, BMS', etc. They will have many growing pains trying to go universal. That's just the nature of that more difficult task.

But as far as the chargers themselves, yes, Tesla has perfected that better (better up times, better status monitoring, better app, etc).

 

[voxel]

Reports are that Tesla will eventually open up their Supercharger network to handle CCS. CCS is already the industry standard connector/protocol though. The Tesla connector is the outlier, and the one that will get displaced eventually.

When Tesla finally offers CCS service, they will run into many of the same problems EA does now though -- serving many different auto manufacturers, charge curves, BMS', etc. They will have many growing pains trying to go universal. That's just the nature of that more difficult task.

But as far as the chargers themselves, yes, Tesla has perfected that better (better up times, better status monitoring, better app, etc).

There’s CCS type 1 and type 2. It’s not the same BTW. I also heard Europe use three phase power and we use one.

if you’ve followed the inverse connector (that allows Tesla EVs to use CCS chargers) you will realize how much a cluster chuck.. the system is. They can’t even get an adapter to work 100% of the time with Tesla cars due to wacky chargers and have to change/update firmware on the adapter itself.

As I mentioned before, I don’t think the European system works that well currently because all of Bjorns videos he’s casually mentioned broken charger here and there as if that situation is completely normal.

 

[dbsb3233]

There’s CCS type 1 and type 2. It’s not the same BTW. I also heard Europe use three phase power and we use one.

if you’ve followed the inverse connector (that allows Tesla EVs to use CCS chargers) you will realize how much a cluster chuck.. the system is. They can’t even get an adapter to work 100% of the time with Tesla cars due to wacky chargers and have to change/update firmware on the adapter itself.

As I mentioned before, I don’t think the European system works that well currently because all of Bjorns videos he’s casually mentioned broken charger here and there as if that situation is completely normal.

Yes, CCS1 is North America, CCS2 Europe. I didn't bother to spell out that much detail because (1) you can't drive between the two so it's irrelevant, and (2) the point was that each CCS version is the industry standard for those continents instead of Tesla which is the outlier. I was simply pointing out that even though many people like the smaller Tesla connector better, don't expect it to become the common standard. It won't be. CCS will.

Yes, the entire industry has work to do yet to consolidate and perfect common standards. We're still in the very early stages of BEV adoption.

 

[voxel]

Yes, CCS1 is North America, CCS2 Europe. I didn't bother to spell out that much detail because (1) you can't drive between the two so it's irrelevant, and (2) the point was that each CCS version is the industry standard for those continents instead of Tesla which is the outlier. I was simply pointing out that even though many people like the smaller Tesla connector better, don't expect it to become the common standard. It won't be. CCS will.

Yes, the entire industry has work to do yet to consolidate and perfect common standards. We're still in the very early stages of BEV adoption.

Very early stages yes. I have little faith, even if we converge on a connector standard in the US, charging will improve.

In 5 years EA, EVGo, ChargePoint will likely run of investor funding and go bankrupt(assuming no massive EV infrastructure subsidies) and good riddance. Those companies don’t care much about the end customer experience and/or are focused on commercial fleet services or selling charging hardware to corporations.

VW CEO ripped apart the European version of EA - Ionity:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/08/diess-gives-ionity-a-scathing-review-online/

That network seems to be as poor and small as EA here.

“Due to delays in its roadmap (mainly due to the Covid, and also a lack of funding), Ionity doesn't brag about the stalls installed in Europe. Operating 336 charging stations with just over 1000 stalls at the end of Q1 2021, the network competes with Tesla supercharger's network with 6000 stalls and 600 stations in Europe at the same time. In August 2021, Volkswagen's CEO Herbert Diess, one of the main partners through Porsche, criticizes Ionity Charging Experience on LinkedIn, pointing that the service is simply not good enough with lack of stations/stalls/toilets/refreshments, charging points out of service. "simply not premium".[23]”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IONITY

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