Down for the count :(

[DevSecOps]

Part of the electricity I pay for comes from Ameren Missouri Solar farms.

Granted, those electrons just contribute to the overall grid... yet

https://www.ameren.com/missouri/company/environment-and-sustainability/solar/community-solar

My utility gives an "EV discount" to charge between the hours of 12am - 6am, which I take advantage of since it's .09 kWh. There's no solar in the grid at that time and per CalISO our power comes from natural gas and out of state imports (probably coal) during those hours. If it's windy sometimes we get about 10% wind power. Thus my smart ass comment ?

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[EELinneman]

My utility gives an "EV discount" to charge between the hours of 12am - 6am, which I take advantage of since it's .09 kWh. There's no solar in the grid at that time and per CalISO our power comes from natural gas and out of state imports (probably coal) during those hours. If it's windy sometimes we get about 10% wind power. Thus my smart ass comment ?

I worked in the past at Tri-State Generation & Transmission. There was a guy with a Nissan Leaf who charged for free at the HQ. He had a bumper sticker that said "This car powered by coal" just to piss off some people. Then there is a friend of mine who came up with "This car powered by natures original renewal energy - whale oil"!

 

[louibluey]

Okay! So I found this PDF and it looks like Ford doesn't recommend a change in LVB even with the extra accessories that would be using it. They do go into depth about the charging of the LVB from HVB so worth the read for some extra clarified information about the system. I'll keep looking, thought this was some good info!

Pages 5 and 6 of the pdf (thanks for finding and posting it) are most interesting, LVB charge conditions listed below. Most interesting is the 48 hour rule. That probably explains why some of us are seeing the bottom as 40%, while others have seen the LVB drop below 40% into the 30s. The rules are more complicated than I expected (and these are just the page 6 rules). It might be easier to read as a flow chart.

I am not too worried about the cautions about the replacing/using the same battery, some have suggested the same type is all that is really important, here AGM. If the end of life or some related number is off a bit, I'm not too worried. Several of us are running on the AC Delco 50 Ah battery with no reported problems yet.

On the other hand, if the problem is that MME is not adequately charging the LVB, the few extra Ah are not going to solve or significantly improve the situation.

The reference to a 220A DC/DC converter in the GT as compared to the lower models 160A converter is interesting. The extra capacity might be meaningful for a number of emergency lights, radios, computers, police radar units, etc. but I doubt it would make much difference regarding the LVB problems that we are seeing.

"• LV Battery Temp > -15°C" - Okay, this could be problematic! Is there an exception somewhere?
Do any of the Special Conditions override this limit?

ENTRY CONDITIONS FOR HIGH VOLAGE TO LOW VOLTAGE ENERGY TRANSFER

Normal Entry Conditions:

• The following are entry conditions that must be met to initiate an Energy Transfer Request:
• Ignition = Off
• Parked Gear
• No Error or Faults Detected in HV to LV Energy Transfer System (e.g. DTCs etc.)
• No OTA software update in process
• HV Battery SOC and Power Limits > 15% HV SOC
• LV Battery Temp > -15°C
• *** LV Battery SOC <= 40%
• *** Minimum Lock Out Period – 48 hours
• Since ignition off, and last energy transfer
*** Indicate special conditions where can be over written

Special Conditions:

• 1.) If Customer On-Demand Request is detected (e.g. OTA On-Demand)
• Then request will be honored with any LV Battery SOC.
• [Overrides LV Battery SOC <= 40% condition.]
• But other conditions must apply before sending energy transfer request
• OTA (Over The Air) On-Demand Request provides option for LV battery energy top off before OTA software update

• 2.) If LV Battery SOC =< 40% and detection of any of the following special error conditions:
• Battery End of Life (EOL)
• High Key Off Load (KOL)
• Park Lamps Active / Hazard Lamps Active
• Then will initiate energy transfer request.
• [Overrides 48 hour delay limit]
• But other conditions must apply before sending energy transfer request.
• Special error conditions and customer on-demand noted above are excluded from 48 hour lock out period.

• 3.) If LV Battery SOC =< 30%; extreme threshold - will initiate transfer request
• [Overrides 48 hour delay limit]

 

[Thunderbirdsoundsbetter]

Wow I got a call from ford corporate. From what I am told this is the first time for my circumstance. So I’ll post updates when I have them

 

[hawkeye3point1]

While we wait....

I am curious about the caution on page 8 about disconnecting the negative battery terminal (see below, typos included for authenticity), since I have seen this in threads for various fault conditions.

Maybe the 10mm wrench should not be the tool of choice.
What think Ye?

"It is recommended that the Battery Monitoring Sensor pole clamp is not removed unless a battery replacment is required. Shoud the battery need to be isolated, this should be done by disconnecting the ground eyelet at the chassis ground."

 

[SnBGC]

It's interesting that they recommend against any trim level besides GT, due to the inadequacy of the 12v battery to handle additional loads on non-GT trims.
Do the GT trims have a higher capacity LVB from the factory? And if so, what's the reason?

I went back through that document and comprehend it a little better the second (and third) time.

They are recommending the GT because it has a larger DC/DC converter 220A compared to 160A in the other trims. They are also recommending the larger HVB for extra range.
The LVB is the same in all trims. 35 AH

It sounds like there are two ways to maintain the LVB. HV to LV Energy Transfer and Charging.
In the WSM is says the DC/DC converter is responsible for Maintaining and Charging.
Maintaining could be the Energy Transfer
Charging could be Charging.

The system might have different contactors for each purpose. Which sorta makes sense because if the car is off then you really don't want the entire HV system energized just to "Maintain" the battery. There might be a backup set of contactors of lower amperage for the energy transfer to the LVB. And that would make sense why there are different conditions for that system. The the requirement for the vehicle to be OFF and in PARK makes sense. When this method is used, the charge rate is .3kW

The other method would be Charging while the vehicle is running.....like we normally associate with an alternator. In that scenario then the charging rate varies between 12.0v and 15.5 volts.

So, two different things are discussed in that article IMO.

 

[SnBGC]

I don't think the battery is different.

The detail I noticed was the reference to a 220a dc-dc converter as opposed to the 160a on other trims. I do not know if this is true. Only thing I can think of is that the GT trim would be specified for higher pursuit speed, and the possible extra dc load for the Magnaride active suspension.

They appear to be different parts. Physically different because of the larger motor up front but also different in amps. Shows as two different parts in the Parts Catalog as well....

 

[SnBGC]

Pages 5 and 6 of the pdf (thanks for finding and posting it) are most interesting, LVB charge conditions listed below. Most interesting is the 48 hour rule. That probably explains why some of us are seeing the bottom as 40%, while others have seen the LVB drop below 40% into the 30s. The rules are more complicated than I expected (and these are just the page 6 rules). It might be easier to read as a flow chart.

I am not too worried about the cautions about the replacing/using the same battery, some have suggested the same type is all that is really important, here AGM. If the end of life or some related number is off a bit, I'm not too worried. Several of us are running on the AC Delco 50 Ah battery with no reported problems yet.

On the other hand, if the problem is that MME is not adequately charging the LVB, the few extra Ah are not going to solve or significantly improve the situation.

The reference to a 220A DC/DC converter in the GT as compared to the lower models 160A converter is interesting. The extra capacity might be meaningful for a number of emergency lights, radios, computers, police radar units, etc. but I doubt it would make much difference regarding the LVB problems that we are seeing.

"• LV Battery Temp > -15°C" - Okay, this could be problematic! Is there an exception somewhere?
Do any of the Special Conditions override this limit?

ENTRY CONDITIONS FOR HIGH VOLAGE TO LOW VOLTAGE ENERGY TRANSFER

Normal Entry Conditions:

• The following are entry conditions that must be met to initiate an Energy Transfer Request:
• Ignition = Off
• Parked Gear
• No Error or Faults Detected in HV to LV Energy Transfer System (e.g. DTCs etc.)
• No OTA software update in process
• HV Battery SOC and Power Limits > 15% HV SOC
• LV Battery Temp > -15°C
• *** LV Battery SOC <= 40%
• *** Minimum Lock Out Period – 48 hours
• Since ignition off, and last energy transfer
*** Indicate special conditions where can be over written

Special Conditions:

• 1.) If Customer On-Demand Request is detected (e.g. OTA On-Demand)
• Then request will be honored with any LV Battery SOC.
• [Overrides LV Battery SOC <= 40% condition.]
• But other conditions must apply before sending energy transfer request
• OTA (Over The Air) On-Demand Request provides option for LV battery energy top off before OTA software update

• 2.) If LV Battery SOC =< 40% and detection of any of the following special error conditions:
• Battery End of Life (EOL)
• High Key Off Load (KOL)
• Park Lamps Active / Hazard Lamps Active
• Then will initiate energy transfer request.
• [Overrides 48 hour delay limit]
• But other conditions must apply before sending energy transfer request.
• Special error conditions and customer on-demand noted above are excluded from 48 hour lock out period.

• 3.) If LV Battery SOC =< 30%; extreme threshold - will initiate transfer request
• [Overrides 48 hour delay limit]

See my post above. I believe Energy Transfer System is different than the LVB charging circuit.
The ETS is for when the car is left parked unattended for a period of time while the LVB Charging System is for normal day to day use.

 

[louibluey]

While we wait....

I am curious about the caution on page 8 about disconnecting the negative battery terminal (see below, typos included for authenticity), since I have seen this in threads for various fault conditions.

Maybe the 10mm wrench should not be the tool of choice.
What think Ye?

"It is recommended that the Battery Monitoring Sensor pole clamp is not removed unless a battery replacment is required. Shoud the battery need to be isolated, this should be done by disconnecting the ground eyelet at the chassis ground."

I think they are just trying to avoid mechanical wear and tear to the BMS. Another reason might be that if you let go of the lifted negative terminal, it just falls back down on the battery negative terminal. I use a glove or cloth as an insulator, or tape the negative terminal to the bar above. It is much easier to lift the 10mm battery terminal side. (all speculation)

For those who prefer, to lift the other end of the lead "this should be done by disconnecting the ground eyelet at the chassis ground", that side lifts with a 13mm wrench. You are unscrewing the negative jump post. It is a pain to remove and lift that end, especially with the tab that goes into the chassis. Also, it takes many turns (it is a long bolt). It would take a very deep socket, or just a wrench. I use one of those gearwrench like ratcheting 13mm wrenches.

When my drivers speedo display went blank, lifting the negative terminal solved the problem in 5 minutes. Any chance I get to avoid the lost hours associated with towing and/or dealer service, I take it.

 

[dtbaker61]

I went back through that document and comprehend it a little better the second (and third) time.

They are recommending the GT because it has a larger DC/DC converter 220A compared to 160A in the other trims. They are also recommending the larger HVB for extra range.
The LVB is the same in all trims. 35 AH

It sounds like there are two ways to maintain the LVB. HV to LV Energy Transfer and Charging.
In the WSM is says the DC/DC converter is responsible for Maintaining and Charging.
Maintaining could be the Energy Transfer
Charging could be Charging.

The system might have different contactors for each purpose. Which sorta makes sense because if the car is off then you really don't want the entire HV system energized just to "Maintain" the battery. There might be a backup set of contactors of lower amperage for the energy transfer to the LVB. And that would make sense why there are different conditions for that system. The the requirement for the vehicle to be OFF and in PARK makes sense. When this method is used, the charge rate is .3kW

The other method would be Charging while the vehicle is running.....like we normally associate with an alternator. In that scenario then the charging rate varies between 12.0v and 15.5 volts.

So, two different things are discussed in that article IMO.

in either case, the LVB *should* be maintained if everything is working properly.... and the quick check that literally anybody can do is plug in a $10 voltmeter to the acc socket, and if it EVER shows less than 11.9, head for a Dealership.

 

[hawkeye3point1]

For those who prefer, the other end of the lead referred to lifts with a 13mm wrench.

Thanks, I was guessing it would be 12mm. I always have to go looking for a 13mm.

 

[MachTri]

What red battery indicators? If it's this icon:

That's normal, and appears every time the car is turned on briefly as a test.
If the icon remains on after more than a few seconds, or stays on permanently, then THAT's a problem.

But otherwise this is very normal, and it's on all the time while the car is in Accessory mode (on but not running).

It was Both that one and the "oil change" icon Kinda like this but more neon red ->

 

[louibluey]

Thanks, I was guessing it would be 12mm. I always have to go looking for a 13mm.

Also, I've probably lifted that 10mm side maybe 50+ times between installations, battery swaps, and testing, and my BMS still works fine. Point taken on the note though, that is what it says.

 

[Astraea]

See my post above. I believe Energy Transfer System is different than the LVB charging circuit.
The ETS is for when the car is left parked unattended for a period of time while the LVB Charging System is for normal day to day use.

So as I understand it, there IS a system that will charge the LVB while the vehicle is in motion and a separate one that monitors and chargers the LVB when necessary while the vehicle is off. Does that sound correct?

 

[hawkeye3point1]

So as I understand it, there IS a system that will charge the LVB while the vehicle is in motion and a separate one that monitors and chargers the LVB when necessary while the vehicle is off. Does that sound correct?

Yes, I also came to the same conclusion after trying to make sense of the info as written. Just a case of the target audience not being the casual reader.

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