Elon's Prediction

[mkhuffman]

Well you are right, except how many 40,000 sq ft homes does someone need.

I mean, I am sure an excellent CEO could skate by with $10 million a year instead of $25 million. Would the extra money go to the line workers, no, and even if it did it wouldn’t amount to any real money to each person but the perception is that its out of control and I am or was in the financial world my entire career And think it is out of control.

Actually, a lot of people make a lot of money as a result of building and maintaining a 40,000 sq ft home. I have not figured out how many jobs a house that large creates, but it is a lot. My little 3,000 sq ft house has created a lot of jobs as we have contractors doing things here on a regular basis.

And how much disposable income does someone who makes $25M a year have? A lot. And they spend it. They spend it on people who have jobs and who also work for a living. They also invest it, which provides more liquidity in the markets they invest in. And the banks that house their money use it to loan to others who need help buying something expensive. Their money does not sit under a mattress - it greatly stimulates the economy in many, many ways.

I know you are a capitalist, and we are on the same side. But don't fall for the lies about how paying someone a lot of money is "out of control". It isn't. People are paid what they are worth and what the market is willing to pay them. Well, except for people who work for a union. The are paid a lot more than they are worth. Most of them anyway. The good performers are paid what they are worth, but they would be paid that anyway even if they didn't have the union speaking for them.

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[Mirak]

Farley's salary + bonus incentives = about $4.5M in 2022. Ford sold 4.2M vehicles in 2022. Just over a buck a car. Is that really a problem?

Yeah, but I heard he gets paid solely from sales of each HVBJB. Damned silk pajama executives.

 

[Mach1E]

Yup, similar numbers. I didn't count the stock as that matures over three years, and isn't real cash. But add that in $16M over 13M vehicles (4.2M x 3) and it's just another $1.23 per vehicle. Still peanuts.

And if he does his job well, it can greatly impact the money available for raises, benefits, the number of jobs available etc for the company.

You don’t want a “discount CEO” running things.

Focusing on CEO pay is just a distraction.

I know local small business owners that make more money than what we are talking about. And they definitely don’t head up multi-billion dollar international companies.

 

[kennethjk]

Actually, a lot of people make a lot of money as a result of building and maintaining a 40,000 sq ft home. I have not figured out how many jobs a house that large creates, but it is a lot. My little 3,000 sq ft house has created a lot of jobs as we have contractors doing things here on a regular basis.

And how much disposable income does someone who makes $25M a year have? A lot. And they spend it. They spend it on people who have jobs and who also work for a living. They also invest it, which provides more liquidity in the markets they invest in. And the banks that house their money use it to loan to others who need help buying something expensive. Their money does not sit under a mattress - it greatly stimulates the economy in many, many ways.

I know you are a capitalist, and we are on the same side. But don't fall for the lies about how paying someone a lot of money is "out of control". It isn't. People are paid what they are worth and what the market is willing to pay them. Well, except for people who work for a union. The are paid a lot more than they are worth. Most of them anyway. The good performers are paid what they are worth, but they would be paid that anyway even if they didn't have the union speaking for them.

I have heard all those comments about trickle down economy and quite frankly don’t buy all of it. We can agree to disagree on that one. Some truth to it sure but not as much as some people believe.

to say that union people get paid more than they are worth is not fair either.

if lower paid people were paid more don’t you think they would be spending all of their new wages on services also, money would still go into the economy

maybe instead of those 40k sg ft housing we could have more senior housing

yes money goes to banks who then lend but many of the wealthy money is not in savings banks but in other places, doesn’t always help lending but they may be investing in start up businesses which does help economy

do some of these mega wealthy people Do good with their money, yes, some great Foundations that are worthy.

when a hedge fund guy is just trading stocks and makes 100 million a year, what is he building? I can appreciate Ford CEO making what he makes compared to others that just trade.

I understand all the logic and commentary, just feel there is a middle ground somewhere

 

[MW1515]

Actually, a lot of people make a lot of money as a result of building and maintaining a 40,000 sq ft home. I have not figured out how many jobs a house that large creates, but it is a lot. My little 3,000 sq ft house has created a lot of jobs as we have contractors doing things here on a regular basis.

And how much disposable income does someone who makes $25M a year have? A lot. And they spend it. They spend it on people who have jobs and who also work for a living. They also invest it, which provides more liquidity in the markets they invest in. And the banks that house their money use it to loan to others who need help buying something expensive. Their money does not sit under a mattress - it greatly stimulates the economy in many, many ways.

I would argue that giving over a hundred thousand workers an increase in their hourly wages does more to stimulate the economy than the millions that a few CEOs have invested in their home and sitting in their bank account. Those workers will DEFINITELY spend that money on bills, home additions, college, etc. I 100% agree that CEOs help stimulate the economy but what they also do is hide millions/billions in foreign tax shelters which is not doing anything for the economy.

 

[thekat03]

Whenever money is involved it always seems to lead to unsavory behavior. I generally wonder if the Union Bosses truly have the workers best interest at heart or is this just another play for profits? So, we get to know how much the CEO's make; what about the Union's Bosses? Are the Union's finances readily available? Do they make money outside of their salaries? I'm pretty sure Jimmy Hoffa did ok, had a few side hustles!!!! I just hope these hardworking laborers are not being lied to and robbed by the people they are trusting. Seems like their demands are on the "radical" side.

I think union bosses are more likely to care about their workers' best interests than CEOs. The demands aren't out of line with what other unions have requested and gotten recently.

I have heard all those comments about trickle down economy and quite frankly don’t buy all of it. We can agree to disagree on that one. Some truth to it sure but not as much as some people believe.

to say that union people get paid more than they are worth is not fair either.

if lower paid people were paid more don’t you think they would be spending all of their new wages on services also, money would still go into the economy

Personally, I am rooting for a trickle-up economy. Pay auto workers enough to buy the cars they make.

That would mean Lucid employees would need to be paid pretty well... ?

 

[tuminatr]

Like everything the market decides the price. I did some (far from robust looking at Glassdoor and indeed) research. It appears factory workers get paid $16 per hour on average and benefits are not great. Ford currently pays $25 to $33 per hour and the benefits are incredibly good. I read Jim Farleys comments the other day saying their wages and benefits cost ford about 5 billion in profits vs if they were non union like Tesla. He went on to say total compensation is around $280,000 per factory worker when you figure in the benefits.

I do think the average factory worker is underpaid but it could be the UAW worker is not. I hope this works out and is a compromise that works for both parties.

 

[veronicablack]

Very interesting to me which threads get shut down for being "politics" and which don't.

 

[Shaggyrn]

Unions had there place in history. With all the regulations now unions in my opinion are outdated and only are for the union benefit.
People want to talk about wages need to go up for low and middle class do not understand simple economics/business. If you want hire wages work harder make what you do something someone wants to pay for. Unions get people more money for less work. Why do cars cost so much? The pay and pensions of union workers have this cost baked into the final cost of cars. Business pass on all cost.
For example of passing on cost I share this with many people.
I worked at McDonalds in 1987 and was making $2.10 an hour. (minimum wage was $1.60) I could buy a Super Size (now large) Quarter Pounder with cheese for $3.50. So basically a hour and a half of work. For all those that are unaware McDonalds wasted a lot of food in 1987 since it was not made to order and sit in warming bins.
Fast forward to today (minimum wage now $ 7.25) If you buy a Large Quarter Pounder with cheese it will cost you $9.50. This is about 1.25 hours of working. With that said McDonalds waste has went way done since now they assemble your food when ordered.
I can tell you the food has not changed. What increased is the cost of labor.
If the unions continue to ask for more the cost will go up on cars and less will be sold. Plants/factories will close and union workers will be laid off. The union boss will continue to draw their paychecks as they find more people to buy into the union song and dance.
Sorry about the rant but I am tired of people complaining about not getting enough pay. Work harder or get a better skill.

 

[shelnian]

As long as executives get pay raises and bonuses based on company profits, employees will have to fight for their fair share.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

Why is the ignore button not working?

 

[Pioneer74]

He went on to say total compensation is around $280,000 per factory worker when you figure in the benefits.

That's not even remotely accurate.

 

[kennethjk]

Unions had there place in history. With all the regulations now unions in my opinion are outdated and only are for the union benefit.
People want to talk about wages need to go up for low and middle class do not understand simple economics/business. If you want hire wages work harder make what you do something someone wants to pay for. Unions get people more money for less work. Why do cars cost so much? The pay and pensions of union workers have this cost baked into the final cost of cars. Business pass on all cost.
For example of passing on cost I share this with many people.
I worked at McDonalds in 1987 and was making $2.10 an hour. (minimum wage was $1.60) I could buy a Super Size (now large) Quarter Pounder with cheese for $3.50. So basically a hour and a half of work. For all those that are unaware McDonalds wasted a lot of food in 1987 since it was not made to order and sit in warming bins.
Fast forward to today (minimum wage now $ 7.25) If you buy a Large Quarter Pounder with cheese it will cost you $9.50. This is about 1.25 hours of working. With that said McDonalds waste has went way done since now they assemble your food when ordered.
I can tell you the food has not changed. What increased is the cost of labor.
If the unions continue to ask for more the cost will go up on cars and less will be sold. Plants/factories will close and union workers will be laid off. The union boss will continue to draw their paychecks as they find more people to buy into the union song and dance.
Sorry about the rant but I am tired of people complaining about not getting enough pay. Work harder or get a better skill.

You must be right because cows never ask for more money

I say pay everyone .50 an hour and cost will def come down

of course that would mean CEOs would only make 300k today

 

[tuminatr]

That's not even remotely accurate.

Total compensation includes all costs incured not just wages. All of these benefits are very generous for union employees.

Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
Dental and vision benefits;
Group life insurance;
Disability benefits;
Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;
Unemployment compensation; and
Payroll taxes (employer's share).

 

[Mirak]

I have heard all those comments about trickle down economy and quite frankly don’t buy all of it. We can agree to disagree on that one. Some truth to it sure but not as much as some people believe.

to say that union people get paid more than they are worth is not fair either.

if lower paid people were paid more don’t you think they would be spending all of their new wages on services also, money would still go into the economy

maybe instead of those 40k sg ft housing we could have more senior housing

yes money goes to banks who then lend but many of the wealthy money is not in savings banks but in other places, doesn’t always help lending but they may be investing in start up businesses which does help economy

do some of these mega wealthy people Do good with their money, yes, some great Foundations that are worthy.

when a hedge fund guy is just trading stocks and makes 100 million a year, what is he building? I can appreciate Ford CEO making what he makes compared to others that just trade.

I understand all the logic and commentary, just feel there is a middle ground somewhere

I think your comments are reasonable, measured, and non-tribal, which is refreshing on a message board! That said, I don't think grousing about wealth inequality is likely to lead anywhere good or productive. I just don't think we can centrally plan our way to "equality," and it might even be counterproductive to try.

As for union people being paid more than they are worth... I think an increasingly global marketplace has generally proven this to be correct? Isn't this a big reason why so much manufacturing has left the US? In a free market, something is "worth" whatever somebody is willing to pay, and that includes labor. But powerful unions such as the UAW distort free markets.

Finally, there are a lot more people struggling financially in recent years, and I have a lot of sympathy for them, but wages are going up. They're just not keeping pace with inflation. Inflation is really hurting people. But trying to keep pace with inflation by raising wages is a doom loop. We have to tackle the root causes of inflation, not resort to short term bandaids that contribute to the inflation.

I don't profess to be an expert on any of this... these are just general principles.

But I will say, I think it's interesting that even some on the left are expressing some skepticism about the UAW's demands. I think they got too greedy, and they aren't winning the message war. The 32hr workweek probably jumped the shark for ordinary, non-union American workers.

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