Elon's Prediction

[DevSecOps]

As long as executives get pay raises and bonuses based on company profits, employees will have to fight for their fair share.

Lol okay...

Let's take $20M away from Farley and give it to his employees, since that would be "fair" right?

20M / 186,000 = $107 per employee per year

- or -

$0.05 per hour.

They are asking for a $13.20 increase in hourly, an entire free day and increased packages, likely totaling closer to $30 an hour in total compensation.

But it's not really about being fair now is it...

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[shelnian]

Lol okay...

Let's take $20M away from Farley and give it to his employees, since that would be "fair" right?

20M / 186,000 = $107 per employee per year

- or -

$0.05 per hour.

They are asking for a $13.20 increase in hourly, an entire free day and increased packages, likely totaling closer to $30 an hour in total compensation.

But it's not really about being fair now is it...

Ford made $25.509B in profits in the past 12 months. Divide that 186000 and it equals $13,714 per employee or $6.60 per hour.

 

[Blue highway]

Ford made $25.509B in profits in the past 12 months. Divide that 186000 and it equals $13,714 per employee or $6.60 per hour.

got it, so the demands of the union would certainly bankrupt the company.

 

[Zigma51]

“More comfortable wages.” ?

That’s how you describe demanding a 40% pay raise along with working a 32 hour week (but getting paid for 40 hrs)?

The demands are absurd and will just result in future plant closures.

Just when we convince manufacturers to move jobs back in the US, the unions do their best to make them regret that decision.

This is why all the car makers are moving to Mexico and overseas...

 

[DevSecOps]

Ford made $25.509B in profits in the past 12 months. Divide that 186000 and it equals $13,714 per employee or $6.60 per hour.

Not being rude, but you don't understand how business works if you think profits should all be paid out to employees. Just screw over the invested share holders and stifle innovation/job creation??? That would bankrupt the company and tank the stock.

How do you propose Ford build new factories, which employee overpaid union workers, if they paid out their earnings?

 

[Pioneer74]

Total compensation includes all costs incured not just wages. All of these benefits are very generous for union employees.

Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
Dental and vision benefits;
Group life insurance;
Disability benefits;
Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;
Unemployment compensation; and
Payroll taxes (employer's share).

I get an explanation of benefits every year. I know what my total compensation is, and even working in a skilled trade with a lot of overtime, I'm not remotely close to the numbers Mr Farley said.

 

[JWPortland]

“More comfortable wages.” ?

That’s how you describe demanding a 40% pay raise along with working a 32 hour week (but getting paid for 40 hrs)?

The demands are absurd and will just result in future plant closures.

Just when we convince manufacturers to move jobs back in the US, the unions do their best to make them regret that decision.

The Mach-e is built in Mexico.

 

[Vulnox]

Ford made $25.509B in profits in the past 12 months. Divide that 186000 and it equals $13,714 per employee or $6.60 per hour.

Ford does not have 186,000 union employees. Those numbers include salaried, non-union hourly, etc. While there are a lot of employees in the plants, not all employees are in the plants, and even in the plants not all are union.

Ford can absolutely afford to pay the union more without going bankrupt, and people bringing up stuff like 40% increase and leaving off that it's 40% over four years, and is obviously a starting point and subject to negotiation, are not discussing this subject in good faith.

At least for 2021, the union count looked to be around 57k from what I can find, not sure where it's at now, but likely won't be far off that mark.

I have my own issues with some of the actual union employees, as my time spent at REVC where they build the Lightning was met with some frustration from SOME of the union employees that absolutely took advantage. But judging an entire group by the worst examples is terrible practice. I hope they get a fair increase, and absolutely support them on this. I suspect they will arrive at a compromise that isn't 40% and all that, but we will see.

 

[DevSecOps]

The Mach-e is built in Mexico.

And?

Earlier this year Ford announced 2 new factories in the USA. Ford paused work on a $3.5 billion electric vehicle battery plant in Michigan, citing a lack of confidence in its ability to operate it competitively. In other words, they will still be made in some other country.

I wonder why they can't be competitive when each UAW worker gets paid hundreds of thousands in total comp vs foreign labor.

Mexican auto workers get paid well. They get $25/hr and for down there, that's great pay. The difference is in the benefit packages. $25/hr in UAW is closer to $60/hr total, whereas in Mexico it's closer to $30/hr. So, while they get paid about the same, cost to Ford is 1/2 of the US auto worker. This is why non-union Tesla can operate much more efficient in the USA. The total cost per employee is much less.

 

[kennethjk]

I think your comments are reasonable, measured, and non-tribal, which is refreshing on a message board! That said, I don't think grousing about wealth inequality is likely to lead anywhere good or productive. I just don't think we can centrally plan our way to "equality," and it might even be counterproductive to try.

As for union people being paid more than they are worth... I think an increasingly global marketplace has generally proven this to be correct? Isn't this a big reason why so much manufacturing has left the US? In a free market, something is "worth" whatever somebody is willing to pay, and that includes labor. But powerful unions such as the UAW distort free markets.

Finally, there are a lot more people struggling financially in recent years, and I have a lot of sympathy for them, but wages are going up. They're just not keeping pace with inflation. Inflation is really hurting people. But trying to keep pace with inflation by raising wages is a doom loop. We have to tackle the root causes of inflation, not resort to short term bandaids that contribute to the inflation.

I don't profess to be an expert on any of this... these are just general principles.

But I will say, I think it's interesting that even some on the left are expressing some skepticism about the UAW's demands. I think they got too greedy, and they aren't winning the message war. The 32hr workweek probably jumped the shark for ordinary, non-union American workers.

Thanks, I dont think I am grousing, just making a comment about what CEOs earn. Regardless of how big the company is , what many make is just obscene, in my opinion. I have less of a problem with someone like Musk who risked everything and who started his company from scratch.

I am neither for or against unions, union membership had gone down considerably over the years for good reason but I don’t think just because of unions work has moved overseas.

We have a higher standard of living, do you want our workers to earn $1 an hour to match overseas workers or those in Mexico?

I still think the 32 hour week is nothing more than PR, bad PR at that to negotiate, they know it won’t happen at least I hope so.

nor do I think we should or can centrally plan anything, communism tried that and it didn’t work.

you make good points and inflation is a problem but only in the last year or so and workers have been losing pace for a long time Mostly because of globalization.

I really don’t have any answers and have no clue how to solve a revolving problem.

sure wish I did.

anyway my last post here because, well, we probably have all had enough And this is a better discussion in person to flesh out everything, with a scotch and cigar.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Musk compensation is based on performance goal reached. When he signed that contract Tesla was weeks from bankruptcy and the milestone he had to reach was so high that no one thought that it was achievable. Musk bet on himself and won.
There was a real possibility that he would have loss all his investments and worked for free if Tesla didn’t succeed.
Would workers be willing to take that chance? Getting paid in stocks? I would guess that majority wouldn’t.

 

[Pioneer74]

I wonder why they can't be competitive when each UAW worker gets paid hundreds of thousands in total comp vs foreign labor.

It also put estimated hourly labor costs for the Detroit Three automakers for those workers, including benefits and bonuses, at an estimated $66 per hour this year.

Hourly labor costs, including benefits and expenses, at nonunion plants operated by Tesla and foreign transplants are also less than at the Detroit Three, from $45 to $55 per hour, according to recent Free Press reporting, a point that the companies tend to highlight.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2023/09/20/wages-uaw-talks-what-they-are-now/70896998007/

I respect you, Dave. I even agree with you on a lot of points. The 4 day work week is unattainable. The asking of a 46% pay increase is laughable. And, yes. The unskilled hourly rate is already pretty high. But please stop with the inflated figures.

 

[tuminatr]

I get an explanation of benefits every year. I know what my total compensation is, and even working in a skilled trade with a lot of overtime, I'm not remotely close to the numbers Mr Farley said.

Here is as close as I can find to an explanation. Many articles comparing CEO pay almost none comparing UAW workers to non union workers in the same field. This is from the CEO of GM

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/autos/2023/09/20/gmuawautoworker-pay/

 

[AKgrampy]

Total compensation includes all costs incured not just wages. All of these benefits are very generous for union employees.

Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
Dental and vision benefits;
Group life insurance;
Disability benefits;
Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;
Unemployment compensation; and
Payroll taxes (employer's share).

And maybe a few other items but still nowhere near what was stated. Total package, with all costs included, I would guesstimate to be no more than wage X 2. I negotiated several IBEW contracts so am quite familiar with the total costs. To be clear the same costs apply to non-union employees as well as management.

 

[DevSecOps]

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2023/09/20/wages-uaw-talks-what-they-are-now/70896998007/

I respect you, Dave. I even agree with you on a lot of points. The 4 day work week is unattainable. The asking of a 46% pay increase is laughable. And, yes. The unskilled hourly rate is already pretty high. But please stop with the inflated figures.

My name isn't Dave... but that's okay, I can be Dave for a day!

I'm not inflating figures. I posted earlier a link to the sheet metal workers union pay. It's similar, to what UAW is asking. While we can't see the UAW total comp package, Unions throughout the USA are very similar. If we look at the below chart you can see that if they get what they want they will be paid very similar to this which works out to over 106k base with over 237k total comp. That's not exaggerated at all.

The news is on the side of the unions. They are never going to mention their total comp. They will never mention that they get 5 weeks of PTO. Per your location you are in Michigan, where the average hourly is $19.17. It only takes a UAW worker 6 years to get to max pay at $33 with Ford, as an example. At $33 an hour the total comp is likely $70, which is $145k a year.

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