Elon's Prediction

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Pioneer74

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superdave80

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No reason why workers can't organize and negotiate for their fair share unless you like being a slave to make Elon richer.
I really get tired of people comparing a worker who voluntarily works for a company, and can leave at any time, getting PAID for their work, to a person being ripped from their home and forced into labor/prostitution/whatever for the rest of their lives for zero pay. If you work for Elon , you are absolutely not a slave in any way, shape, or form.
 

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I really get tired of people comparing a worker who voluntarily works for a company, and can leave at any time, getting PAID for their work, to a person being ripped from their home and forced into labor/prostitution/whatever for the rest of their lives for zero pay. If you work for Elon , you are absolutely not a slave in any way, shape, or form.
We actually agree on something?
 


Just Lurking

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Interesting comments and thread. Let me add a few points that I don't think I've seen anyone mention yet:

1)
One of the reasons CEO pay has become something of a lightning rod, is because it has increased so much more than typical worker salaries. I read recently that in the 1950s typical CEO pay was 20 times typical worker, today it's 350 times. Today's CEO is operating in a more complex environment so I understand it makes logical sense to pay more to attract and retain top talent, but the optics don't look good from the typical worker perspective.

2)
After the great recession, the automaker unions made huge concessions to help their companies survive. Since 2009 inflation-adjusted worker pay has dropped significantly while executive pay has increased significantly, and the companies are much healthier now than they were. So it seems reasonable that the workers would want to try and increase their pay now.

3)
It used to be that skilled blue collar labor at an auto manufacturer was one of the few things that you could do without advanced education that could guarantee a middle-class lifestyle. Unrelated to whether the current negotiation is fair or not, I think it's sad that there's no real path to a middle class lifestyle for so many people now.

4)
Income and wealth inequality have been increasing for decades, and many people on this thread have surely benefited, myself included, but it's a concerning trend. High levels of income and wealth inequality fray the fabric of society and can eventually lead to social unrest. It's quite possible that we are already seeing some of that with the extreme polarization of the country.
 

Vulnox

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And the Mach-E is made by union labor. I think I would rather see more unions, at Tesla, and in factories around the world, rather than less.
Exactly, when people say "well they will just take the work out of the country", that is admission to supporting a company exploiting someone else when workers fight back in one location. I absolutely understand that companies need to make enough money to continue operation, but that hasn't been the goal for almost any company dealing in union talks. The goal of Ford and others is to have a constantly increasing profits to make shareholders happy, and it's unsustainable and without unions they would find those profits in holding back employee pay.

Plus, Ford and anyone in here arguing for them doesn't have a leg to stand on countering the union so long as Ford has the money it seems for 484 million in stock buybacks last year. If Ford has the free cash to do stock buybacks while putting on the puppy dog eyes of supposedly not being able to survive by paying their employees more and you think they are in the right, then I don't know what else can be said. There's absolutely open discussion possible on what the union is asking, as long as you keep in mind in these negotiations they always come in with big numbers, but workers always deserve to get paid first.
 

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I can't comment on that. There isn't enough information. All I know is the information Ford sends me every year that explains the dollar amount for every benefit provided to me.
The notable item on there is it says total compensation before the contract negotiation is $67 per hour at GM vs $45 per hour at Tesla.

You could share the info at Ford total compensation it would be interesting. Believe it or not that info is very hard to come by. I respect that you may not want to do that however.
 

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Interesting comments and thread. Let me add a few points that I don't think I've seen anyone mention yet:

1)
One of the reasons CEO pay has become something of a lightning rod, is because it has increased so much more than typical worker salaries. I read recently that in the 1950s typical CEO pay was 20 times typical worker, today it's 350 times. Today's CEO is operating in a more complex environment so I understand it makes logical sense to pay more to attract and retain top talent, but the optics don't look good from the typical worker perspective.

2)
After the great recession, the automaker unions made huge concessions to help their companies survive. Since 2009 inflation-adjusted worker pay has dropped significantly while executive pay has increased significantly, and the companies are much healthier now than they were. So it seems reasonable that the workers would want to try and increase their pay now.

3)
It used to be that skilled blue collar labor at an auto manufacturer was one of the few things that you could do without advanced education that could guarantee a middle-class lifestyle. Unrelated to whether the current negotiation is fair or not, I think it's sad that there's no real path to a middle class lifestyle for so many people now.

4)
Income and wealth inequality have been increasing for decades, and many people on this thread have surely benefited, myself included, but it's a concerning trend. High levels of income and wealth inequality fray the fabric of society and can eventually lead to social unrest. It's quite possible that we are already seeing some of that with the extreme polarization of the country.
The pay inequality is not due to the "rich" getting paid more, it's due to investment and the return on it. When the "working class" is choosing to buy frivolous stuff because of YOLO, then they can never improve. Society has to change its mentality. But it's really hard when a new $1000 iPhone comes out every year and you just have to have it to impress your Instagram friends. People don't save for the future and complain that the "man" is keeping them down.
 

Pioneer74

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The notable item on there is it says total compensation before the contract negotiation is $67 per hour at GM vs $45 per hour at Tesla.

You could share the info at Ford total compensation it would be interesting. Believe it or not that info is very hard to come by. I respect that you may not want to do that however.
I tell you what. I usually shred everything with my name on it after I read it. But if I still have it, I'll scan and post it with only my name redacted. I doubt I still have it, though. They send them out at the beginning of the year.

But I'm not disputing the numbers you posted. They sound about right. But it's far from the numbers Farley and others have stated when accounting for a 2080 hour work year.
 

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At least you agree it’s “childish” to demand the 32 hr thing. ?
I said no such thing. Children are natural negotiators. They are not afraid to ask for what they want. So many adults are, and they shouldn't be. They should be as fearless as children are in asking for what they want.

And yes, auto industry executive pay has gone up 40% since 2009. Workers' pay has not, and in general, has not kept up with inflation, either.
 

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We have a higher standard of living, do you want our workers to earn $1 an hour to match overseas workers or those in Mexico?
No, of course not. I’m just pointing out that this global competition undermines the unions’ call for higher wages. I don’t have the answers. We obviously want to live in this beautiful country with high standards of living and high cost of living. We also want to buy cheap stuff from WalMart and generally we want everything to be as inexpensive as possible. We also want our retirement funds to go up, which means we want the companies we invest in to be profitable. Basically, we want the best of everything but something’s gotta give!
 

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I tell you what. I usually shred everything with my name on it after I read it. But if I still have it, I'll scan and post it with only my name redacted. I doubt I still have it, though. They send them out at the beginning of the year.
Thanks, yes please don't share a name or address. You don't even need to share the documents. If you found an online article that shows the correct amounts that would be helpful.
 
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Vulnox

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The pay inequality is not due to the "rich" getting paid more, it's due to investment and the return on it. When the "working class" is choosing to buy frivolous stuff because of YOLO, then they can never improve. Society has to change its mentality. But it's really hard when a new $1000 iPhone comes out every year and you just have to have it to impress your Instagram friends. People don't save for the future and complain that the "man" is keeping them down.
What you are saying doesn't represent reality. There absolutely are people that buy a new phone every year, but they are the severe minority. Apple has said that the average lifecycle of current iPhones is three years. Being an average, that means there are people keeping them for less of course, but also those keeping them for longer. And since the average is falling in the 3 year mark, it would make sense that a small number are actually replacing them every year.

What DOES drive people to get new phones is the corporate push to artificial obsolescence, and while Apple is often the one getting heat for this, it's present with almost every manufacturer, and on the Android OS side, many users find they stop getting major OS updates after only 2-3 years. Apple does a better job on ensuring older devices continue getting OS updates, but they fail at device reparability/battery replacement.

Meaning many people on either of the major OS sides, are essentially pushed to upgrade, and it isn't enough to say to just get a dumb phone because for many careers, having a smartphone is almost a necessity, and more and more companies take their employees having a personal smartphone as a given, not something they need to invest in.

Society's mentality on what you are referencing is hardly perfect, but it's not even close to what you seem to think it is, and you're echoing talking points that companies love to put out there to excuse their bad behavior. May as well go on about millennials and avocado toast and all the other stuff we have heard over the years to excuse corporate greed and diminish the complaints of groups being underpaid.
 
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