Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

[mark360]

It's so funny to me that there are a couple of members on here that claim to own Model 3's, and yet make completely ignorant statements about them. Statements they'd know to be utterly and completely false if they had ever actually driven a 3, as opposed to reading about it on the internet. Like the assertion that the 3 will max out at the speed limit on non freeway roads. In fact, the limit is 5 Mph over the speed limit. A small error, but one a real owner wouldn't make for sure. I have never understood the need some people have to pretend to be someone they aren't on forums... I'll admit to being intolerant of people that do this. I have never suffered fools easily.


Manufacturing techniques developed for the Model Y are also many years ahead of legacy automakers. This happens anytime a new company enters an established field. (Assuming the new company has the means.) Legacy automakers have a substantial investment in older machinery that is not easily replaced. Tesla, starting from the ground up, is able to take advantage of advances in technique and technology.

As far as the usability of FSD, we'll know more sometime soon. The HW 3.0 computer is so much faster than 2.5 that the software is not capable of taking advantage of it. Tesla is currently doing a complete foundational re-write of the AP software. When that re-write is complete, we'll know what the AP can really do. Musk has stated that the advance will be revolutionary as opposed to evolutionary compared to the current software. Additionally, advances will happen at a much accelerated rate. Right now, 99% of the effort is being put in to developing the new software. Once the new software is done and released to the public, all of that effort that is currently invisible to the public will be put in to advancing the software. I agree that the $7k charged for FSD is not currently worth it. The $7K is an investment in what Elon Musk says will come. If he delivers FSD, that $7K will be a huge bargain. If he does not, it is an investment in a dream. Believe him or not, that is your choice.

Comparing Waymo to Tesla is like comparing bread to steak. Waymo relies on incredibly detailed GPS maps and comparatively simple software to drive in a pre-defined and limited area. (Downtown Portland for example.) Tesla is using artificial intelligence and standard GPS maps to enable a car to drive in a myriad of locations and conditions. The promise is to get in your car, tell it where to go--be it across town or across the country--and go to sleep. Every HW 2.5 Tesla "watches" the road and sends driving information back to the mothership. Tesla's are literally "learning" how to drive themselves. The AP driving data collected by Tesla is estimated to be worth $50B all by itself, as no one else has this data, or the means to collect it.

I don't know why you would hint at the fact that I appear to be a fake Tesla owner pushing a Fake agenda, did you even read my first post coming on here? Why would you call me out but not quote me?

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/mustang-mach-e-is-a-gamechanger-here-is-why-vs-tesla.410/

First of all, on my backroad to work it doesn't have the speed limit registered, which is 55MPH, and only allows me to drive the car 45MPH on AP - Well below posted speed limit. Since owning my car, my car still hasn't fixed the roads speed limit despite several bug report submissions, and there is a major highway that has been open for close to two years that still doesn't allow navigate on autopilot (70MPH highway). So progression is EXTREMELY slow.


In my experience, Tesla's model is too slow for them to even update a major highway that opened two years ago to support NavonAP.

Waymo is the quickest to level 4 because they were smarter about deployment. Tesla is still 5-6 years away minimum from level 4 and even then it will be geofenced just like waymo.


I don't appreciate you trying to claim what I'm saying is incorrect, because it is actually correct. For 80% of my drive, AP won't allow me to go above posted speed limit for that reason. AP is useless on my daily commute. If your commute requires major highways, then I'm sure it works fine.

For the long haul road trip, AP is a nice convenience feature. However, I do not like the auto lane changes and driving characteristics of Nav on AP. The only time I find it beneficial is when I want to look at my phone or take my eyes off the road. I always leave Nav on AP off for that reason. I prefer to initiate lane changes and drive the off ramps.

Also, here is a video of my interior squeaks:



Tesla needs to get their car building techniques correct. They build a sub-par car mechanical fit and finish wise compared to legacy automakers.

Ford will build a better car, no question. There isn't much catching up to do when you get down to the nitty gritty.

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[mark360]

Third party analysis of HW 3.0 suggest that the Tesla designed computer is 6 to 7 years ahead of legacy automakers, at least. The engineer involved in the teardown in Japan stated that he did not believe Tesla's feat could be duplicated by Legacy automakers--ever. He state that he believed this due to the structure of the companies and their supply chains.

Manufacturing techniques developed for the Model Y are also many years ahead of legacy automakers. This happens anytime a new company enters an established field. (Assuming the new company has the means.) Legacy automakers have a substantial investment in older machinery that is not easily replaced. Tesla, starting from the ground up, is able to take advantage of advances in technique and technology.

How is the manufacturing techniques of the Model Y many years ahead of legacy automakers? The Model X, Tesla's most expensive model, has the worse reliability according to consumer reports. No other car compares to the unreliability in it's price range. EV's are suppose to be more reliable than ICE I thought?

I hope you're not talking about all the robots Elon tried to put in the factory to run the wire for wiring harnesses? But failed miserably and almost sent the company under? But they are experts now, right?

If you're talking about the single cast mold for the aluminum body, that is not advanced. The reason legacy automakers don't do that is because the tooling cost is immense for a mold that size and when body design changes ever 5 years you would need to invest heavily into new cast molds. That is a much more expensive way of doing it. Tesla has no intention of ever changing the Design of the Model Y or Model 3 for that matter. The model X/S are desperate for an interior and exterior design but that isn't going to happen with their manufacturing techniques. It saves cost per vehicle if you run the same body style for a certain amount of years, but just goes to show my point.

How about when Elon fired the chief engineer of the model 3 because he over engineered the car? LOL.

As far as the usability of FSD, we'll know more sometime soon. The HW 3.0 computer is so much faster than 2.5 that the software is not capable of taking advantage of it. Tesla is currently doing a complete foundational re-write of the AP software. When that re-write is complete, we'll know what the AP can really do. Musk has stated that the advance will be revolutionary as opposed to evolutionary compared to the current software. Additionally, advances will happen at a much accelerated rate. Right now, 99% of the effort is being put in to developing the new software. Once the new software is done and released to the public, all of that effort that is currently invisible to the public will be put in to advancing the software. I agree that the $7k charged for FSD is not currently worth it. The $7K is an investment in what Elon Musk says will come. If he delivers FSD, that $7K will be a huge bargain. If he does not, it is an investment in a dream. Believe him or not, that is your choice.

So much faster yet so useless. It will only put them to level 3 - level 4 autonomy max in the next decade. That still requires a driver at the wheel. I am basing that knowledge of progressive updates since 2016 (over model X and model 3 ownership).

Comparing Waymo to Tesla is like comparing bread to steak. Waymo relies on incredibly detailed GPS maps and comparatively simple software to drive in a pre-defined and limited area. (Downtown Portland for example.) Tesla is using artificial intelligence and standard GPS maps to enable a car to drive in a myriad of locations and conditions. The promise is to get in your car, tell it where to go--be it across town or across the country--and go to sleep. Every HW 2.5 Tesla "watches" the road and sends driving information back to the mothership. Tesla's are literally "learning" how to drive themselves. The AP driving data collected by Tesla is estimated to be worth $50B all by itself, as no one else has this data, or the means to collect it.

Waymo the steak, Tesla the bread. Tesla doesn't even come close to touching the technology Waymo has.

Tesla's approach is the mile wide inch deep approach. They can't even get phantom breaking or their windshield wipers fix that use the neural network, but yet we are to believe their AP is superior. You do realize you can actually ride in a driverless waymo taxi, right now in phoenix?


My whole premise for this is that Tesla is not that far ahead as people want to make them out to be. They are no farther ahead than Argo AI is with Ford's technology, only difference is Ford doesn't make it's drivers beta tester for the software. They are leaving it for the professionals and have stated numerous times they would release a car that goes straight to level 4 autonomy.

By the time Tesla achieves level 4 autonomy, early model 3 and model Y's will be hitting the junkyard.

 

[Nak]

That thirdy party assumed that legacy car makers a) will self-develop the software b) from what is on the market now - meaning what they could compare against. Ford has said they partnered with outside-the-company computer and software developers...so it seems Ford is flipping the assumptions that the third party made. It sounds like, if we believe the talking points - and I have no reason not to - is that Ford used internal and external partners to develop a whole new system for the MME...maybe the third party is right if Ford stayed with the status quo, but it sounds like they haven't...

Correct me if I'm wrong, But I don't think has made any claim that the Mach-e will ever get a fully autonomous autopilot? My understanding is that Ford is looking at hands free, not fully autonomous. Certainly when it comes to hands free driving I doubt Ford is seven years behind Tesla. When it comes to FSD though, Ford--and everyone else--is at least seven years behind Tesla. No else has the data Tesla has been collecting, nor do they have the means to collect that data. Having half a million cars driving around collecting data is a pretty big deal.

Again, I'm not talking about limited autonomy like Waymo. Waymo isn't even in the same game as Tesla. Waymo, and most everyone else, is trying to develop a very limited form of autonomy. Highly detailed maps and an extremely limited geographical area. Rather than the car learn how to drive, every intersection, driveway, crosswalk etc. will be programmed in with a pre-programmed response. Tesla is attempting to develop an AI that can learn how to drive and respond to driving situations based on observed conditions.

 

[Billyk24]

Tesla is attempting to develop an AI that can learn how to drive and respond to driving situations based on observed conditions.---This has been ongoing since when...the release of the model S? Tesla is using owners for data collection for this purpose and charging thousand of dollars for something that doesn't exist, hasn't existed since when? While promising FSD "soon". Has soon arrived? No. Is it going to arrive in two months-six months-two years-or never? Fraud?

 

[eastern refugee]

Tesla is attempting to develop an AI that can learn how to drive and respond to driving situations based on observed conditions.---This has been ongoing since when...the release of the model S? Tesla is using owners for data collection for this purpose and charging thousand of dollars for something that doesn't exist, hasn't existed since when? While promising FSD "soon". Has soon arrived? No. Is it going to arrive in two months-six months-two years-or never? Fraud?

BINGO. The overall google rumor is 3-5 years. Truth? Who knows.

 

[zhackwyatt]

ain, I'm not talking about limited autonomy like Waymo. Waymo isn't even in the same game as Tesla. Waymo, and most everyone else, is trying to develop a very limited form of autonomy. Highly detailed maps and an extremely limited geographical area. Rather than the car learn how to drive, every intersection, driveway, crosswalk etc. will be programmed in with a pre-programmed response. Tesla is attempting to develop an AI that can learn how to drive and respond to driving situations based on observed conditions.

I've been in a Waymo. It drove around the city without any intervention. Handled complex intersections, curves, hills, parking lots without issue.

Tesla, on the other hand, (in a Model 3 with their newest visualizations) showed a crossing walk sign as a stop sign on a clear sunny day. A car next to it as a garbage can. It can't even navigate an open parking lot with smart summon without putting on the brakes for no reason.

Elon promised a Tesla would drive by itself - completely autonomously from New York to Los Angeles in 2017. Three years ago and they haven't been able to come close.

Who is ahead of who again?

 

[eastern refugee]

I've been in a Waymo. It drove around the city without any intervention. Handled complex intersections, curves, hills, parking lots without issue.

Tesla, on the other hand, (in a Model 3 with their newest visualizations) showed a crossing walk sign as a stop sign on a clear sunny day. A car next to it as a garbage can. It can't even navigate an open parking lot with smart summon without putting on the brakes for no reason.

Elon promised a Tesla would drive by itself - completely autonomously from New York to Los Angeles in 2017. Three years ago and they haven't been able to come close.

Who is ahead of who again?

Unless you live under a rock, everyone knows Musk is a complete liar.

 

[Billyk24]

Unless you live under a rock, everyone knows Musk is a complete liar.

Many statements from Tesla are related to driving the stock price.

 

[mark360]

I've been in a Waymo. It drove around the city without any intervention. Handled complex intersections, curves, hills, parking lots without issue.

Tesla, on the other hand, (in a Model 3 with their newest visualizations) showed a crossing walk sign as a stop sign on a clear sunny day. A car next to it as a garbage can. It can't even navigate an open parking lot with smart summon without putting on the brakes for no reason.

Elon promised a Tesla would drive by itself - completely autonomously from New York to Los Angeles in 2017. Three years ago and they haven't been able to come close.

Who is ahead of who again?

Yep, you are exactly correct. Waymo's technology is amazing. Argo AI has something very similar, they just don't have the taxi service yet. Will be interesting to see development but they are keeping it hush hush at the moment. They are a private company, so good for them.

 

[Ken7]

Although I really like my S, it’s behind the competition in terms of body integrity. That’s a widespread issue and shows in the CR owner reports on reliability. The rattles drive me nuts and really impacts my perception of quality. What almost makes it worse is that the rattles come and go. One day they’re there and the next day they’re gone. I’ve usually been pretty good in locating rattles when I’ve had them on previous cars, but the Tesla’s rattles keep eluding me.

 

[mark360]

Although I really like my S, it’s behind the competition in terms of body integrity. That’s a widespread issue and shows in the CR owner reports on reliability. The rattles drive me nuts and really impacts my perception of quality. What almost makes it worse is that the rattles come and go. One day they’re there and the next day they’re gone. I’ve usually been pretty good in locating rattles when I’ve had them on previous cars, but the Tesla’s rattles keep eluding me.

Yeah, the rattles are awful. It really gives the car a bad perception for quality, fit and finish. I will say that has drove me crazy.

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