LFP battery vs. NCM

[Anders31]

As said many times, the total range will be reached way before battery dies, and IF battery dies before, it will be covered by the warranty, so really who cares?

You really care from where your Cobalt comes? come on! we own solar panels, mobile phones, computers, rely on fissible materials and coal for energy, we poo on drinkable water, and so more if we did really cared at some point we would ride a bike.

The only benefit is for the constructor which is cutting on cost, they can both reduce price and increase margins by a somehow very tiny amount.

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[MacherAWD]

Is #2 actually a benefit that will benefit anyone?

Its starting EPA range is 250 miles.
4000 cycles is 1 million miles.

So after 1 million miles the range will be 200 miles.

Compare to an ER vehicle-
312 miles starting range
2000 cycles 624,000 miles

After 624k miles range will be 250 miles….

Still more range than a SR vehicle would have even after 624,000 miles. And like you said this is more worst case if you always charge to 100%.

So I don’t think this will have any real world benefit to anyone.

The biggest benefit of LFP is to Ford itself. They are putting in a battery that is 1/3rd the cost, will trigger less warranty claims, and are charging the same price for it. I know they are actually just losing less money but still.

 

[Guss-E 2021]

Thank you for the input. This is certainly a learning curve. I don’t see the benefit of ER for $7k as I will mainly use for local driving in Central Florida. Maybe one long trip per year which I’ll have to plan out.

Looking back over my 17.5 months of ownership, I definitely could have saved myself $7K and have forgone the ER pack in my car. But that's based on my circumstances.

I believe LFP batteries are less prone to degradation from full charge cycles (100 to 0 and back again) than NCM. But that only really matters if for some reason you have to charge to 100% (i.e. max out your range) regularly.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

Let me say that coming to the GT PE from a Chevy Bolt EV, all the slow charging complaints don't hold water with me.

Bolt proudly takes the bottom of every charge. So faster than the bolt is not something to write home about.

After all, we’re talking about the Chevy Bolt, not that Usain guy ?.

 

[Mach1E]

The biggest benefit of LFP is to Ford itself. They are putting in a battery that is 1/3rd the cost, will trigger less warranty claims, and are charging the same price for it. I know they are actually just losing less money but still.

Is it really that much cheaper?

They did drop the price though, so at least some of the savings went to the consumer.

 

[MacherAWD]

Is it really that much cheaper?

They did drop the price though, so at least some of the savings went to the consumer.

Not sure, and I am not bad mouthing LFP, but there is a big benefit to the manufacturers. I was basing this off that graphic about battery replacement costs, it had all the bigger Litium Ion around 20k, and the LFP mach-e at 7k, but that did seem super low.

 

[PA Bob]

Let's be real about quoting ranges. The reality is:

- Any of the ranges quoted by the manufacturers are EPA range, not real world
- The Guess-O-Meter range is not a real range
- Highway driving yields a lower range than local driving. At 73 or so mph, you'll get around 2.8 - 2.9. With a 70kWh battery, that's 196 - 203. With an ER 91kWh battery that's 255 - 264.

BUT, that's BS, because you only go from 100% on the first leg (or at a hotel stay), not DC fast charging. And no one goes down to 0%. The real highway range is from 80% down to 20% and back up to 80%, or 60% of the numbers above. So an SR's distance between chargers on the highway is 196 x 60% or 118 miles. An ER is 255 x 60% or 153 miles.

Sure, in perfect conditions maybe you get 3.0. Or, you drive 65mph and get 3.2 or 3.3.

Last month we did a 4,708 mile trip over 14 days to 8 national parks across 10 states. So please, stop the "can't go on long distance trip" stuff.


I think it’s smart to look at Rick Mache’s ‘s range numbers and realize your standard range battery will have an effective range of about 120 miles if you’re keeping it between 20 and 80%. You still have the ability to get up close to 200 miles, but you risk getting stranded and affecting battery life. The other thing to remember is that cold weather was severely degrade your range numbers.
All that said, I picked the standard range. It meets about 99% of my needs. I took a drive across Pennsylvania, and had some anxiety producing episodes due to the lack of DC fast chargers. I would never make that trip in my car in cold weather. I ended up having to stop three times, and it added over an hour to my trip. Again, I make that trip once or twice a year. Perhaps the addition of Tesla magic dock stations will help with this issue.
The other issue for me on the standard range battery was that it would have knocked me out of range for the Federal tax credit and the state tax rebate. it made getting a extended range battery even more expensive.

 

[c-had]

Ok, I didn't know the LFP batteries charged faster. Is there any real world test data out there?

I haven't seen any tests from journalists of the LFP battery yet. Kinda surprising to me, since there seem to be so many places covering EVs these days.

I've only DC fast charged my LFP once, and it wasn't a 10-80% test, so I can't say anything to those numbers (I went from 22% to 63% just to test out ensure it worked, which took 17 minutes). I did see speeds of almost 150kW (143kW I believe), so I guess the max charge rate Ford states is accurate.

 

[DaMeatMan]

Is #2 actually a benefit that will benefit anyone?

Its starting EPA range is 250 miles.
4000 cycles is 1 million miles.

So after 1 million miles the range will be 200 miles.

Compare to an ER vehicle-
312 miles starting range
2000 cycles 624,000 miles

After 624k miles range will be 250 miles….

Still more range than a SR vehicle would have even after 624,000 miles. And like you said this is more worst case if you always charge to 100%.

So I don’t think this will have any real world benefit to anyone.

I think it does, and you also need to take into account that the cycle rating on LFP is rated from a 100% charge, whereas I'm almost certain the cycle life of NMC is rated at 80% charge. So when doing the math you need to also consider your not getting 100% of available range from NMC, and you should deduct 20% of the range from your calculations.

Not to mention very few folks will actually sit at a fast charger waiting for a 100%, particularly when the charge rate falls off a cliff after 80% for NMC, which is not the case for LFP.

 

[Mach1E]

I think it does, and you also need to take into account that the cycle rating on LFP is rated from a 100% charge, whereas I'm almost certain the cycle life of NMC is rated at 80% charge. So when doing the math you need to also consider your not getting 100% of available range from NMC, and you should deduct 20% of the range from your calculations.

Not to mention very few folks will actually sit at a fast charger waiting for a 100%, particularly when the charge rate falls off a cliff after 80% for NMC, which is not the case for LFP.

I don’t think it matters how you look at the number of cycles.

It will be hundreds of thousands of miles before a SR range vehicle would have more range than an LR…… if ever.

Maybe it matters if you bought a used one with 500,000 miles already on the clock, but certainly shouldn’t be a decision maker buying new.

If you want more range (and more horsepower), get the ER battery.

And again, keep in mind that chart of degradation is purely theoretical.

They haven’t tested real world full size Mach E batteries for hundreds of thousands of miles…… yet.

We may know 10 years from now if there really is much of a difference.

 

[DaMeatMan]

I don’t think it matters how you look at the number of cycles.

It will be hundreds of thousands of miles before a SR range vehicle would have more range than an LR…… if ever.

Maybe it matters if you bought a used one with 500,000 miles already on the clock, but certainly shouldn’t be a decision maker buying new.

If you want more range (and more horsepower), get the ER battery.

And again, keep in mind that chart of degradation is purely theoretical.

They haven’t tested real world full size Mach E batteries for hundreds of thousands of miles…… yet.

We may know 10 years from now if there really is much of a difference.

Here is one example of a Tesla standard range model 3's NMC battery dying after only 12 months and 120,000 miles of extremely heavy use as a ride share vehicle

Teslas have allot of data collected out there from many sources, but this is a very unique source of data that I think is so far missing from the equation. I feel like this is an excellent example of where LFP chemistry would have made a world of difference for this particular use case where the battery was cycled hard, and fast charged daily.

 

[Mach1E]

Here is one example of a Tesla standard range model 3's NMC battery dying after only 12 months and 120,000 miles of extremely heavy use as a ride share vehicle

Teslas have allot of data collected out there from many sources, but this is a very unique source of data that I think is so far missing from the equation. I feel like this is an excellent example of where LFP chemistry would have made a world of difference for this particular use case where the battery was cycled hard, and fast charged daily.

Or maybe this one is a fluke.

Cars break, can’t use one example to prove a trend.

Either way since I have 9,000 miles after 3 years it’s never gonna be a concern for me.

But even for the above example- ride share is gonna want to buy the LR battery every time.

 

[Mach1E]

I doubt it's a fluke. Dominos Pizza started the trend decades ago of employing poor people until their rides died, and now Uber and Lyft have followed suit.

A lady where I live was juggling a Bolt and a Tesla on the community's free charger, driving for both of them. She ended up losing both cars. I don't know what she does for a living now.

I’m sure what you said is true, we just need more data than a few “I know a person who….” Stories to draw a conclusion.

 

[ArthurDOB]

Even at 90%, I'd gain only 38 miles with the extended range.

A simple cost-benefit analysis. Unless you're one of the people on here with the multiple EVs they seem to be able to afford to own, is it worth $7K to you for the extra miles? That's why I got a standard range.

 

[Krom2040]

A simple cost-benefit analysis. Unless you're one of the people on here with the multiple EVs they seem to be able to afford to own, is it worth $7K to you for the extra miles? That's why I got a standard range.

Technically it’s only $4,000 right now if you’re financing, as there’s a $3,000 rebate on the extended range.

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