Little heat verified by data log

[Nklem]

Got it. So we see cabin preconditioning happening. I found another picture of your data with HVB temp in it and noticed what I've seen where it preconditions the pack to 10ºC. Then it will do everything it can to maintain that temperature even while driving.

I believe it is a software/too small heater issue. The heater runs the entire time. If valves weren't opening you'd see the power go down when the coolant got too hot. It never goes down.

It seems like 6kW should be enough to actually heat the battery pack though so it is a little confusing how the temp goes down but heater is running full blast. Keep us posted! I'm hoping something is actually broken but after seeing something similar happen to me at only -15ºC I'm thinking this is a software design issue/too small heater issue...

5-6 KW should be enough to heat the car. That is 17,000-20,472 BTUH. That is more than the 1200 SF 1st floor of my house at -15F. Car Heating is 4-5 Air Changes per Minute (about 500 CFM).

That is enough heat for a temperature rise of 31F-37.9F degrees to interior for air passed through the heater core. I believe there is something incorrect in programming, damper or a valve etc.

It could be the recirc damper is stuck 100% closed and forcing all air in from the outside and once through the car. With that issue, you will only get -15+37.9 or 23F degree air all the time. This is inline with what a youtuber in MN posted at -27F ambient temperature, he got like 10F air out of the vents. In normal workings and my car, I have heated to 68-70F from dead cold -5F (-20C) in 15-20 mins.

If anyone has in writing that Ford says this is the best you will get, please publish it. That is grounds for a Design Defect and Lemon Law buyback or a Recall on all Mach E's in the Northern States.

I only have experience down to -5F (-20C) where my car heats fine. I do feel something is not working correctly on some of these cars and needs to be repaired or programmed by Ford.

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[theo1000]

I wonder if a good heat pump would fix this. My Etron w/ heat pump got nice and toasty last year in -12f. Killed the range but no heat issues. The Mach-E heat systems works similar to the volt which has a resistive 3kw heater. I havn't had any issues on the Mach-E down to -2f. I have flipped from re-circ to outside air to avoid the defrost power drain. Worked well so far.

One thing I do occasionally on other EV's is pop the drivers side front and passenger rear window a couple of inches for 5-10 seconds. This will exhaust the humidity and done correctly you will not need defrost much at all. You can stay on re-circ and the car will get toasty again. Flipping to outside air can fool the car sensors into diverting all the power to battery warming. I never use outside air except for brief seconds, at below 20f or so and at any sort of velocity as the wind chill for warm fluids is brutal and causes high energy loss. On my I3 at certain low temperature the outside air option is disabled! Yes really BMW does this. Only way to defrost is to crack window, which on a frameless window is quite the adventure...

 

[camdenlake]

5-6 KW should be enough to heat the car. That is 17,000-20,472 BTUH. That is more than the 1200 SF 1st floor of my house at -15F. Car Heating is 4-5 Air Changes per Minute (about 500 CFM).

That is enough heat for a temperature rise of 37.9 degrees to interior for air passed through the heater core. I believe there is something incorrect in programming, damper or a valve etc.

It could be the recirc damper is stuck 100% closed and forcing all air in from the outside and once through the car. With that issue, you will only get -15+37.9 or 23F degree air all the time. This is inline with what a youtuber in MN posted at -27F ambient temperature, he got like 10F air out of the vents. In normal workings and my car, I have heated to 68-70F from -5F (-20C) in 15-20 mins.

If anyone has in writing that Ford says this is the best you will get, please publish it. That is grounds for a Design Defect and Lemon Law buyback or a Recall on all Mach E's in the Northern States.

I only have experience down to -5F (-20C) where my car heats fine. I do feel something is not working correctly on some of these cars and needs to be repaired or programmed by Ford.

Yes exactly. I have some 6kw heaters and they can heat a large are in very cold no problem. It is much better when stopped so makes me wonder if something is stuck or something is not fully assembled. It feels like the heat struggles all the time when its -10c or lower.

 

[camdenlake]

I wonder if a good heat pump would fix this. My Etron w/ heat pump got nice and toasty last year in -12f. Killed the range but no heat issues. The Mach-E heat systems works similar to the volt which has a resistive 3kw heater. I havn't had any issues on the Mach-E down to -2f. I have flipped from re-circ to outside air to avoid the defrost power drain. Worked well so far.

One thing I do occasionally on other EV's is pop the drivers side front and passenger rear window a couple of inches for 5-10 seconds. This will exhaust the humidity and done correctly you will not need defrost much at all. You can stay on re-circ and the car will get toasty again. Flipping to outside air can fool the car sensors into diverting all the power to battery warming.

Problem is heat pumps loose their effectiveness below -15c for the best ones. I have some friends in HVAC and have discussed heat pumps with them.

 

[benk016]

5-6 KW should be enough to heat the car. That is 17,000-20,472 BTUH. That is more than the 1200 SF 1st floor of my house at -15F. Car Heating is 4-5 Air Changes per Minute (about 500 CFM).

That is enough heat for a temperature rise of 31F-37.9F degrees to interior for air passed through the heater core. I believe there is something incorrect in programming, damper or a valve etc.

It could be the recirc damper is stuck 100% closed and forcing all air in from the outside and once through the car. With that issue, you will only get -15+37.9 or 23F degree air all the time. This is inline with what a youtuber in MN posted at -27F ambient temperature, he got like 10F air out of the vents. In normal workings and my car, I have heated to 68-70F from dead cold -5F (-20C) in 15-20 mins.

If anyone has in writing that Ford says this is the best you will get, please publish it. That is grounds for a Design Defect and Lemon Law buyback or a Recall on all Mach E's in the Northern States.

I only have experience down to -5F (-20C) where my car heats fine. I do feel something is not working correctly on some of these cars and needs to be repaired or programmed by Ford.

Its definitely enough to heat the cabin of the car no problem. The problem seems to be when the car decides to try and heat the battery with it as well.

 

[camdenlake]

Its definitely enough to heat the cabin of the car no problem. The problem seems to be when the car decides to try and heat the battery with it as well.

I thought in some media stuff they showed like silicon electric pads under each module electrically powered for heating then liquid coolant for cooling when needed. I would hope they were smarter than sharing the 6kw heater for the battery and cabin.

 

[Motomax]

Windshield frosting up is more than comfort though as is hands and feet freezing. I wear a winter jacket like always. Does your fan on auto ever settle down? What temp do you usually keep it at when driving?

Fair enough, I must have missed part of your story.
Im not a good reference, 0C is as cold as it gets and I never use the heater. Which is why 10C seems fine to me but sounds like it’s not even close to 10C.

 

[Nklem]

Problem is heat pumps loose their effectiveness below -15c for the best ones. I have some friends in HVAC and have discussed heat pumps with them.

Heat pumps lose their efficiency below 32F or 0C. Some maybe 10 degrees F less. When it gets colder they lose capacity and use much more energy (even more than electric resistive heat). This is not a heat pump/PTC resistive heater issue, it is something on the controls or fluid flow or dampers not working correctly.

I am looking to get this software and an OBD Dongle (I have 2, I do not know if compatible with the software) and run this data. I have -2F temps temps 1st thing on Wednesday (no other for the next week) according to the forecast, so I will try to do this but I do not know if I can make it happen (a lot of if's). If there are any Owners near the Op who can allow this test (with working heat) it would be great data to get.

 

[Nklem]

I thought in some media stuff they showed like silicon electric pads under each module electrically powered for heating then liquid coolant for cooling when needed. I would hope they were smarter than sharing the 6kw heater for the battery and cabin.

I do not think so. It has two/common water loops one for battery etc and one for cabin heating. (and flow through the motor/Inverter too) . The heating I believe comes from warm fluid circulating through the tubing in the bottom of the battery tray diverted from the PTC heater and the heater core is the same. On very cold nights I hear the loop circuiting to keep the battery warm. It can also cool the battery while heating the cabin, should that be needed.

 

[benk016]

I thought in some media stuff they showed like silicon electric pads under each module electrically powered for heating then liquid coolant for cooling when needed. I would hope they were smarter than sharing the 6kw heater for the battery and cabin.

The plates in the battery modules are just to spread the heat, and help shift it away from the cells into the coolant. They aren't powered themselves.

 

[breeves002]

Here's the heating/cooling loops. Note it goes through the heater core first.

#15 is the heater, $20 is the heater core, #3 is the diverter valve to allow the cabin heat loop and battery cooling loop to mix.

 

[Jimbo]

What are you logging with? A BT OBD2 dongle and some app?

Mine seems to have no problem keeping up with heating thus far, but I've only been able to test it down to ~-18°C.

 

[camdenlake]

What are you logging with? A BT OBD2 dongle and some app?

Mine seems to have no problem keeping up with heating thus far, but I've only been able to test it down to ~-18°C.

App is called Car Scanner and dongle is Veepeak both recommended by Mach-E Vlog folks.

 

[breeves002]

5-6 KW should be enough to heat the car. That is 17,000-20,472 BTUH. That is more than the 1200 SF 1st floor of my house at -15F. Car Heating is 4-5 Air Changes per Minute (about 500 CFM).

That is enough heat for a temperature rise of 31F-37.9F degrees to interior for air passed through the heater core. I believe there is something incorrect in programming, damper or a valve etc.

It could be the recirc damper is stuck 100% closed and forcing all air in from the outside and once through the car. With that issue, you will only get -15+37.9 or 23F degree air all the time. This is inline with what a youtuber in MN posted at -27F ambient temperature, he got like 10F air out of the vents. In normal workings and my car, I have heated to 68-70F from dead cold -5F (-20C) in 15-20 mins.

If anyone has in writing that Ford says this is the best you will get, please publish it. That is grounds for a Design Defect and Lemon Law buyback or a Recall on all Mach E's in the Northern States.

I only have experience down to -5F (-20C) where my car heats fine. I do feel something is not working correctly on some of these cars and needs to be repaired or programmed by Ford.

Two issues with your logic.

1. The recirc must be open to defrost. Maybe not all the way but it won't defrost with it closed due to high humidity.

2. The battery is heated with the same 6kW heater. So they steal power for that.

My conclusion is 2 parts as well.

1. The heater is too small to heat the cabin and battery. It appears to mostly be a problem at temperatures below -8ºF, however that is with preconditioning. No preconditioning can see issues even at 15ºF.
2. The logic is bad and it should prioritize cabin heat (for safety reasons like defrost) then heat the battery as it can. If it has to derate your motor power or disable regen so be it.

 

[Nklem]

Two issues with your logic.

1. The recirc must be open to defrost. Maybe not all the way but it won't defrost with it closed due to high humidity.

2. The battery is heated with the same 6kW heater. So they steal power for that.

My conclusion is 2 parts as well.

1. The heater is too small to heat the cabin and battery. It appears to mostly be a problem at temperatures below -8ºF, however that is with preconditioning. No preconditioning can see issues even at 15ºF.
2. The logic is bad and it should prioritize cabin heat (for safety reasons like defrost) then heat the battery as it can. If it has to derate your motor power or disable regen so be it.

I really wish someone at FORD would share how the system works and the logic. Anyone have a system diagram from a Service Manual they can share?

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