MME Charging Curve Data Collection

[silverelan]

I haven't watched this video yet but from Bjorn's Polestar 2 vids, he would yo-yo the car in order to precondition the battery for charging on his road trips, otherwise it would "coldgate" and refuse to maximize its charging ability.

It's kind of a weird shortcoming for the Polestar 2 and Volvo XC40 Recharge considering they're Nordic companies so you'd figure heating up a battery would be top of mind.

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[macchiaz-o]

I haven't watched this video yet but from Bjorn's Polestar 2 vids, he would yo-yo the car in order to precondition the battery for charging on his road trips, otherwise it would "coldgate" and refuse to maximize its charging ability.

It's kind of a weird shortcoming for the Polestar 2 and Volvo XC40 Recharge considering they're Nordic companies so you'd figure heating up a battery would be top of mind.

He mentions this in the video.

No need to watch, to be honest. Here's the summary:

• demonstration that e-tron maintains at 145 kW charge rate at a 150 kW charging station, even though it's cold and snowy and the battery's already 50-60% full.
• some charts showing how XC40, Polestar 2, and Teslas have comparatively lousy charge curves, that only maintain higher charge rates for much shorter durations
• brief mention of yo-yo'ing and other countermeasures
• a lot of rambling on, because he's filling time while waiting for his car to slowly charge.
• suggestion that manufacturers should advertise average charge rates rather than maximums
• he might start doing this himself, in his videos, starting in 2021.

 

[Woeo]

Is it unhealthy for the battery to push high kw into it when you go above 80%

It is unhealthy to sit at DCFC for two hours to go from 80-100% when your itinerary requires it. Watch outofspec motoring. Even with the 'fabulous' "supercharger" network his trips have required charging up to or near 100%.

11-12Kw above 80% should be a red flag and a deal breaker for many.

 

[silverelan]

Thanks @macchiaz-o for the recap!

I like the idea of average power for the 10% to 80% charge up. That definitely sounds more useful than mentioning the peak kilowatts.

Like everyone else, I'm curious if the first customer MMEs will have the same charge curve as the preproduction media test cars or will it be different? No matter what, I'm confident that it will change. Just hopefully always for the better!

 

[SteveUk]

Polestar are made in china and then exported if that makes a difference in your thoughts re Nordic

 

[silverelan]

Polestar are made in china and then exported if that makes a difference in your thoughts re Nordic

Not really since the XC40 Recharge and Polestar 2's design and development are based in Sweden. I suppose they're as Chinese as the Mustang Mach-E is Mexican.

 

[dbsb3233]

Thanks @macchiaz-o for the recap!

I like the idea of average power for the 10% to 80% charge up. That definitely sounds more useful than mentioning the peak kilowatts.

Like everyone else, I'm curious if the first customer MMEs will have the same charge curve as the preproduction media test cars or will it be different? No matter what, I'm confident that it will change. Just hopefully always for the better!

Both would be good (peak and average). I'm still assuming that's what Ford did (indirectly), by giving us "61 miles in 10 minutes" and "10-80% in 45 minutes", which don't match. We assume the former is peak and the latter is average.

Other than the 80%+ plummet, the power numbers reported in preproductions so far seem to meet those targets. 10-80% in 45 minutes is an 82 kW avg. Although that's actually received power. Accounting for loss, it may take 90+ delivered, which is what we've been hearing reported.

 

[Shayne]

It is unhealthy to sit at DCFC for two hours to go from 80-100% when your itinerary requires it. Watch outofspec motoring. Even with the 'fabulous' "supercharger" network his trips have required charging up to or near 100%.

11-12Kw above 80% should be a red flag and a deal breaker for many.

It definitely places further limitation on the vehicle and I also think it could have a bit of a negative effect on adoption. We have had rumors of software updates; but not specifically on charging. Mass media may help?

Did you see Jay Leno's MME vid? Jay tries to feed his guest as he has the intellect to understand the future. His guest not so much and see V8's for many years to come. He's portrayed as a real car guy (a gearhead) where carbon fuel is meant to be burnt for shear self enjoyment; so we can sit and entertain our lazy asses. Climate change has not disappeared due to a pandemic. Time will tell what Ford is thinking and promoting. We can trade up to a better manufacture in a couple of years if needed. All will be forced eventually; ask Jay.

It is a bit of a bummer but still has not deterred me, even if I am coached by a ford employee that it is not for me. It will suit our needs most of the time and allow me to just go for a drive again. Clean electric power generation up here . Best in 2021 to all.

 

[dbsb3233]

11-12Kw above 80% should be a red flag and a deal breaker for many.

If it stays that way, I'd agree. What they appeared to do in the preproductions is limit 80%+ DCFC to what amounts to L2 power. 48A @ 240V is 11 kW. Probably no coincidence they chose that power level to taper (more like plummet) it to at 80% SOC, knowing that was probably already well tested.

But I've gotta think that will be bumped up on DCFC in the production units, either already, or via OTA. Even though I may never actually need to DCFC above 80%, it would be nice to know we could reasonably go higher if there's a long leg ahead (without dropping all the way to an L2 crawl).

 

[SteveUk]

I think it's about protecting the battery expecially as there is a corpoate reputation at stake here... and a huge hit on warranty claims if the batteries fail in the first 8 years.

The cost would be huge. So I'd be very surprised if the battery is opened up to take high charge load above 80% or if that top 11k of battery is opened up for use.

And I agree with what they have done. Have a reliable battey with min risks instead of trashing it.

 

[Shayne]

I think it's about protecting the battery expecially as there is a corpoate reputation at stake here... and a huge hit on warranty claims if the batteries fail in the first 8 years.

The cost would be huge. So I'd be very surprised if the battery is opened up to take high charge load above 80% or if that top 11k of battery is opened up for use.

And I agree with what they have done. Have a reliable battey with min risks instead of trashing it.

It is not protecting the battery it is protecting Ford and their new fear of warranty issues. The cost of a 100 KWh pack now produces 63 KWh highway usable.

They reduced our purchased 100 KWh battery with a 11% buffer to 88 KWh reducing 2 cycle epa range from 270 miles to 250 mi on the 4x. Current reviews indicate they also may limit DCFC to 80% on the remaining 88 KWh so now we have 70 KWh to start. When you are 30% less efficient than the model Y and now have 2 KWh less battery you are not too much of a competitor.

So I respectfully disagree. Do you also believe that is what Tesla and the others are doing; trashing their batteries? I think there are a couple of model S out there still trashing them. Appears to me it is ford protecting themselves which is not helping adoption. Could have been awesome; was engineered and prior managed to be just that. Appears now to be taken over at launch by management whos priority goes to Ford and their warranty items. Won't take long to determine that (couple of years) and then we can all determine our next move. Possible we will get 90% of that 88 KWh on a DCFC but that would not be because of lack of complaining. In two years if it is still a 11% buffer we will know how Ford intends to embrace the future. Right now it has gone from awesome to mere so so. Bean counter decisions and warranty fearers have done that.

 

[dbsb3233]

It is not protecting the battery it is protecting Ford and their new fear of warranty issues. The cost of a 100 KWh pack now produces 63 KWh highway usable.

They reduced our purchased 100 KWh battery with a 11% buffer to 88 KWh reducing 2 cycle epa range from 270 miles to 250 mi on the 4x. Current reviews indicate they also may limit DCFC to 80% on the remaining 88 KWh so now we have 70 KWh to start. When you are 30% less efficient than the model Y and now have 2 KWh less battery you are not too much of a competitor.

So I respectfully disagree. Do you also believe that is what Tesla and the others are doing; trashing their batteries? I think there are a couple of model S out there still trashing them. Appears to me it is ford protecting themselves which is not helping adoption. Could have been awesome; was engineered and prior managed to be just that. Appears now to be taken over at launch by management whos priority goes to Ford and their warranty items. Won't take long to determine that (couple of years) and then we can all determine our next move. Possible we will get 90% of that 88 KWh on a DCFC but that would not be because of lack of complaining. In two years if it is still a 11% buffer we will know how Ford intends to embrace the future. Right now it has gone from awesome to mere so so. Bean counter decisions and warranty fearers have done that.

Too soon to make those dire determinations, I think. First, we need to see what the production units do, to see if it's already been set differently than the preproductions. Second, we need to see what OTA updates may be coming out in the first year (like Tesla did). It's very possible that some of that 11% buffer will be unlocked, and that the charging curve above 80% will improve.

As for protecting the warranty vs the battery, it's pretty much one in the same thing. Unless they're truly going overboard with excessive and unnecessary buffer. And we won't know that for a while yet either. (Also possible we'll never know that.)

Some of your math vs the Tesla leaves out the same practical limitations on it too, bit not worth nitpicking that one. Yes, miles/kWh is less efficient on the MME. It's a heavier vehicle knowingly designed not to sacrifice style/looks for aerodynamics as much as the Teslas do. It's simply not the same vehicle as the Model Y (which is more good than bad, IMO).

 

[SteveUk]

I agree it's to protect Ford due to their 8 year warranty. They wouldn't want a mass of claims.

I agree if they have already hidden 11kw of battery space then it's a huge limitation to add another 20% as blocked off for high speed charging.

 

[malba2366]

It's very possible that some of that 11% buffer will be unlocked, and that the charging curve above 80% will improve.

I think they will only unlock that buffer to counter battery degradation...that 11% is their protection from warranty claims.

 

[ajmartineau]

That 12kW limit is also it get you off the charger. I am wondering if it will do that on all chargers. Or if I plug in at 81%

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