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Scooby24

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I freely admit I am not a thermal systems engineer, but heat has to be moved out of the vehicle at some point. This is usually done via some form of radiative surface. Where is the heat being radiated away into the environment? Maybe I’m dumb and that little, enclosed box, covered with green tape IS radiating heat into it he environment and onto the components (which are other parts of the cooling system?) around it?
The heat is exchanged to liquid which is then cooled down via a radiator....the radiator is shared with the rest of the cooling system as opposed to having a separate air cooled condenser.
 

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Drama. Munro is all about drama. Must have been a real pleasure working with him.
 

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Yes, that is the condenser. It transfers heat to coolant that is then sent through a radiator in the front of the car. That radiator must be larger than an equivalent refrigerant to air heat exchanger.

BTW, It is best to mount brazed plate heat exchangers vertically (skinny end on top), but I guess Sandy hasn't noticed that yet (insert random eyeroll emoji here).
Where is the radiator??? They were very dramatic about pulling out the equivalent part on the Mustang Mach E and making all kinds of derisive comments about it.
 

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Pretty well knew what this video would contain before i watched. Could the Ford be better optimized for weight? You bet. Does the Ford system look more durable that the Tesla? Absolutely!

Tesla's octovalve looks very clever. It also looks like it was designed by people with no experience working in vehicle design. Let me give you one quick example. Have you ever seem a washer fluid bottle leak? It's not uncommon. Octovalve is made of the same PA66, but acturally has heavy components mounted on vertical panels where they will exert torque with every bump and pothole. On the Ford components are accessible for service. Making a repair on the Tesla system will be very labor intensive.

I'm not worried about coolant leaks from hoses since all EV cooling systems operate at moderate temperatures and effectively no system pressure. Hose leaks when they do occur are easily repaired anyway.
The octovalve is known to leak too. Someone said that instead of the hoses they basically made all those parts inside it. If one single part of it fails you have to replace the whole octovalve, which is not cheap. If a hose leaks, you replace the hose. Its much cheaper. From a right of repair aspect too, the ford is better, where the Tesla locks you in. Ford weirdly enough did a design where most components in this a regular repair shop can easily identify a failure.
Tesla is known if one thing fails you have to replace the entire thing, which can cost tens of thousands of dollars. Look into the video on the guy which tesla qouted $16k for a repair, but a repair shop fixed it for $700. This is a common problem with Tesla. All their "all in one" tech is so damn expensive when it fails or breaks.
Not saying the mach e is cheap to fix, but I just see it as a more repairable vehicle.
Everything I have seen so far tells me the ford is the more repairable vehicle. My husband loves Tesla, but it is coming off increasingly like the apple of autos in terms of repair.
Disclosure...husband has a Tesla. So this is coming from some degree of experience.
 

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Drama. Munro is all about drama. Must have been a real pleasure working with him.
He worked at Ford in the era of Hank the Deuce. That should tell you all you need to know about his leadership style 😀
Oh, and at one point he proudly pointed out that he was “the #3 guy on the Boeing 787”. People may want to take a look at the 787 development program and the various setbacks, delays, and engineering issues it had. I’m not sure I’d put being a leader on that program on my resume, unless I was one of the people who got the program turned around, and maybe also fixed the “hey, the batteries spontaneously combust” issue 😀
 
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Scooby24

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Where is the radiator??? They were very dramatic about pulling out the equivalent part on the Mustang Mach E and making all kinds of derisive comments about it.
Where all radiators are. He pulled out the Air cooled condenser which is SEPARATE from the radiator.

Guys...I get that you may not appreciate the drama, but his points are valid. He's a smart guy, and has brought plenty of criticism to other OEMs, including Tesla. He was very quick to point out their most recent 2021 Model 3 still had a lot of build problems.

The videos are informative, and if nothing else, will help prompt positive change. Why wouldn't we want that?
 

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Where all radiators are. He pulled out the Air cooled condenser which is SEPARATE from the radiator.

Guys...I get that you may not appreciate the drama, but his points are valid. He's a smart guy, and has brought plenty of criticism to other OEMs, including Tesla. He was very quick to point out their most recent 2021 Model 3 still had a lot of build problems.

The videos are informative, and if nothing else, will help prompt positive change. Why wouldn't we want that?
I am only asking for more of a pumpkins to pumpkins comparison. If you’re going to pull out a huge piece of something that’s integral to the system for one car, laugh at it and say “Gee, look how HUGE this is! These guys are total morons who can’t build a Lego model, let alone a functional car! All praise to our Lord Elon and his mighty brain!”, then at least show me the part in the system that is performing the equivalent function! Yes, I get that they have two loops - a water loop and a refrigerant loop, and that they’re dumping heat from the refrigerant loop to the water loop. That’s heat transfer, not heat dissipation. That big radiator thing they were busy criticizing was responsible for heat dissipation. Most uneducated viewers (like me) would be led to believe that the magic silvery box with the green tape was performing the same function as that nasty old big radiator type thingy that Ford used. And of course they’d be wrong.
There is a difference between editorial bias and honesty.
Im not a thermal systems engineer, so I’m not qualified to judge the designs of each one. I’ll agree that the Ford system appears to be more complex and unwieldy. But take the mount for example. They said the Tesla system was attached by a single steel beam running across the chassis, while the Ford system was attached to an aluminum casting that ran across the chassis which also supported the motor. To me, this combination support seems logical?
 

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Why would anyone get their feelings hurt by his videos? From an engineering perspective, I don't think he's displaying any real bias other than having a bias towards better and more efficient engineering.

Ford can improve their design here and I appreciate that the inefficiencies are being brought to light. That's what prompts change. Munro's points have been taken by the OEMs and some things he's mentioned could be improved have made their way into production.

If there's any offense taken in his videos I'd suspect the bias resides moreso in the person taking offense.
As a real engineer (one with a degree and not just "engineer" added to my title), I can tell you that elegance of design and real-world implementation don't always go hand in hand. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what "more efficient engineering" means to you, though.

I'd love for us engineers to rule the world, but there are many reasons why the most elegant design doesn't make its way into production. Sometimes, elegant doesn't equal good. Sometimes elegant doesn't equal less expensive (e.g., Ford has multi-million dollar hose contracts in place with an amazing pricing structure already established). Sometimes elegant means much more difficult to service and much more costly from a warranty perspective.

So like I said, I don't get my feelings hurt by Sandy's videos, but they are his biased view of what he thinks is good from a production perspective and not necessarily a broad view of the life and serviceability of the design.

Does the cooling design cause you a lot of concern about your personal Mach-E? It doesn't bother me, but I'm always interested in hearing another owner's perspective.
 
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Scooby24

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I am only asking for more of a pumpkins to pumpkins comparison. If you’re going to pull out a huge piece of something that’s integral to the system for one car, laugh at it and say “Gee, look how HUGE this is! These guys are total morons who can’t build a Lego model, let alone a functional car! All praise to our Lord Elon and his mighty brain!”, then at least show me the part in the system that is performing the equivalent function! Yes, I get that they have two loops - a water loop and a refrigerant loop, and that they’re dumping heat from the refrigerant loop to the water loop. That’s heat transfer, not heat dissipation. That big radiator thing they were busy criticizing was responsible for heat dissipation. Most uneducated viewers (like me) would be led to believe that the magic silvery box with the green tape was performing the same function as that nasty old big radiator type thingy that Ford used. And of course they’d be wrong.
There is a difference between editorial bias and honesty.
Im not a thermal systems engineer, so I’m not qualified to judge the designs of each one. I’ll agree that the Ford system appears to be more complex and unwieldy. But take the mount for example. They said the Tesla system was attached by a single steel beam running across the chassis, while the Ford system was attached to an aluminum casting that ran across the chassis which also supported the motor. To me, this combination support seems logical?
No they wouldn't be. They did show you the equivalent piece of hardware which was the heat exchanger. From a Condenser perspective they are doing the same thing. They are pulling the heat out of the refrigerant.

Both the Mach E and the Tesla have radiators. The difference is in the Tesla they are able to use the radiator to remove the heat from more sources which is more efficient provided it has the appropriate capacity to do so.
 
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As a real engineer (one with a degree and not just "engineer" added to my title), I can tell you that elegance of design and real-world implementation don't always go hand in hand. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what "more efficient engineering" means to you, though.
I'm not looking for an e-peen competition here with respect to credentials or what sort of engineer gets to call themselves a "real one". I've been following Munro since his first video and appreciate his impact, experience and recommendations. There is always room for improvement and direct comparisons to other designs show where improvements could be made.

There are several points mentioned that I would certainly consider to be more efficient engineering. Less length of hoses that would eliminate pressure drops that would require two additional pumps. Leverage the cooling capacity of a shared radiator versus an air cooled condenser. Reduce the number of connectors that could be prone to leak. Reduce the overall weight of all components involved.

I'd love for us engineers to rule the world, but there are many reasons why the most elegant design doesn't make its way into production. Sometimes, elegant doesn't equal good. Sometimes elegant doesn't equal less expensive (e.g., Ford has multi-million dollar hose contracts in place with an amazing pricing structure already established). Sometimes elegant means much more difficult to service and much more costly from a warranty perspective.

So like I said, I don't get my feelings hurt by Sandy's videos, but they are his biased view of what he thinks is good from a production perspective and not necessarily a broad view of the life and serviceability of the design.

Does the cooling design cause you a lot of concern about your personal Mach-E? It doesn't bother me, but I'm always interested in hearing another owner's perspective.
I appreciate your points. I don't yet have a Mach-E to have concerns about. I, too, am an engineer (software) and spend my time developing, optimizing or enhancing. I've spent my career being humbled in what I thought I knew at the time to be right and appreciate new perspectives and want to see improvements made. Sandy brings a valuable perspective from my point of view and I would appreciate to see improvements made to the Mach-E in order to be successful in the market.
 
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No they wouldn't be. They did show you the equivalent piece of hardware which was the heat exchanger. From a Condenser perspective they are doing the same thing. They are pulling the heat out of the refrigerant.

Both the Mach E and the Tesla have radiators. The difference is in the Tesla they are able to use the radiator to remove the heat from more sources which is more efficient provided it has the appropriate capacity to do so.
Ok. You and I are looking at this differently. I’m looking at this from a total systems perspective and you’re looking at a specific subsystem. I understand what you’re saying and see you’re viewpoint and, from a subsystem perspective, that’s correct. I’m looking at the vehicle as a complete system and want to see heat dissipated from the vehicle. On the Mustang Mach E, they showed that. On the Tesla, they did not.
 

67 Stang Convertible

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I find Sandy to be pretty even handed and not biased. Is Tesla engineering better than Ford? Probably...... But the Mach E does not look like a over grown Tadpole zooming down the Freeway.
 

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OMG, I need to trade my Mach E for a Tesla Y ASAP...........Not. ICE manufacturer vs seasoned EV manufacturer. What did the first Tesla's systems look like? How can Ford have all this extra stuff and labor and it still costs less, hmmmm. '13 Tesla cooling system...... Looks similar....
1626465450411.png
 
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I'm not looking for an e-peen competition here with respect to credentials or what sort of engineer gets to call themselves a "real one". I've been following Munro since his first video and appreciate his impact, experience and recommendations. There is always room for improvement and direct comparisons to other designs show where improvements could be made.

I had no idea about your credentials until you just stated them... so it wasn't a slam-on you. Sorry that you took that personally.

My point is that again, flagging one design as good or bad based on a parts count and the dumping of a Home Depot box on a work table in theatrical fashion doesn't really tell us one design is better than another.

There are several points mentioned that I would certainly consider to be more efficient engineering. Less length of hoses that would eliminate pressure drops that would require two additional pumps. Leverage the cooling capacity of a shared radiator versus an air cooled condenser. Reduce the number of connectors that could be prone to leak. Reduce the overall weight of all components involved.
I'm not saying you are wrong or that you are right. You gleaned a lot more from the length of hoses and efficient engineering than I did, though. Two pumps could be more efficient than an Octvalve, or not. We really haven't been presented with any data to make a conclusion one way or another. Sandy is quoted here - https://metrology.news/ct-scanning-looks-inside-tesla-model-y-octovalve/

"Sandy Munro, Chief Executive Officer of Munro & Associates, said “The Tesla Octovalve is arguably one of the most advanced valving systems ever created for an automobile, and Kinetic Vision’s work was invaluable in understanding how it functions.”"

Does the cooling system need " arguably one of the most advanced valving systems ever created for an automobile"? I don't know, and I don't know if that is what the goal should be.

Sandy brings a valuable perspective from my point of view and I would appreciate to see improvements made to the Mach-E in order to be successful in the market.
I do not dislike the guy, I just take his evaluations with a grain of salt. I also haven't reached a conclusion if Sandy's observations are required for the Mach-E to be successful in the market or not.
 

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Not offended either, but wonder about comparative efficiency. Not a thermal engineer, just a mechanical, but aren't heat transfer systems rated by how many BTUs (or joules or Kcal) they remove or add per unit of energy they consume?

Maybe the Ford system is messy and inelegant, but now does it perform compared to others?
 

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