ericNdfw

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I agree that the Tesla MY setup appears, to my layman's eye, to be more elegant but I thought the same as many here: how expensive is it to fix compared to the Ford system. Several cheaper modules, hoses, etc that probably are shared with dozens of other Ford vehicles probably make a lot more sense from both repairability as well as parts costs.
 

Carsinmyblood

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Do they really think anyone with a clipboard is watching them as they dump a box of hoses on a table?

I'm getting the distinct feeling that Munro and Ford parted ways under trying circumstances, and these videos are payback.
 

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From an engineering standpoint I think his observations are valid, it does seem that the piping likely could have been shortened and simplified to some extent with better design. Does it have to be as simple as the Tesla Octovalve? Probably not, maybe somewhere in between.

Complex piping seems to be par for the course from Ford however, you will find similar enumeration and complexity on many of their other current vehicles. As Sandy often points out, you will often see the continuation of design principles from Ford because that's what the engineers know. I'm okay with that. There are not widespread problems with leaks that I know of, they make good leak-free hoses. They are a pain in the butt if you ever have to change one though!

Perhaps if there's a second generation they could spend some more time optimizing the component locations and packaging to reduce the hose complexity. But what's there will work just fine.

Here are diagrams for the powertrain/electronics loop, the battery loop, and the refrigeration loop:

Cooling1.jpeg
Cooling2.jpeg
Cooling3.jpeg
 
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EELinneman

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The "magic" octavalve he talks about has 11 pieces glued together, 21 ports and the entire mess has to be replaced if a single part fails. How much labor is that? Of couse, his viewpoint is just assembly. You have to disassemble to repair or replace and he never mentions this. Also, I'd much rather have a cast aluminum part that everything hangs off of than a stamped steel item like the Teslas has, but I'm not an automotive engineer.

The octavalve episode is here:
 

EELinneman

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Why would anyone get their feelings hurt by his videos? From an engineering perspective, I don't think he's displaying any real bias other than having a bias towards better and more efficient engineering.

Ford can improve their design here and I appreciate that the inefficiencies are being brought to light. That's what prompts change. Munro's points have been taken by the OEMs and some things he's mentioned could be improved have made their way into production.

If there's any offense taken in his videos I'd suspect the bias resides moreso in the person taking offense.
The bias is that he has been paid by Tesla to do engineering and Ford won't work with him anymore. It seems to be etched in his soul.
 
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Scooby24

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The bias is that he has been paid by Tesla to do engineering and Ford won't work with him anymore. It seems to be etched in his soul.
So are we ignoring all the praise he's given in regards to the Mach E? "Ford can be proud of this"

While at the same time disregarding the criticism to Tesla? "Why is it every time I look at one of these things the build is not right?"
 

physib

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Does it surprise you that a place called Mach E Forum has Mach E fanboys?
 

ericNdfw

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I noticed they said that the MME has 2 coolant loops: one for the battery, cabin, and something called a "PTE" and the other for electronics and motors. I thought I had read that it could scavenge heat from the motors and electronics to warm the battery in the winter, how would that be possible if they are seperate loops? Is there some kind of exchanger between the two?
 

SoriceConsulting

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This kind of reminds me of an old Barron's article I read way back in 1999. It was the front page headline, called Amazon.bomb. Here's a an image of the link (You'll have to be a subscriber to read the whole story).
1626470344566.png


If I had taken the contrarian view from that article I would be a gazillionaire today.

My take is that you just don't know who has the better solution/idea - or if maybe they're all good in their own way - different strokes for different folks...

Is the Tesla design good?
Yup.

Is the Ford design good?
We can't be sure yet - but they have been making cars for a loooong time, so we should give them some time to prove their reasoning/concept(s).

I'm going to just sit back and enjoy my Mach-E and see how it holds up over the next few years - I suspect it will be just fine...
 

Carsinmyblood

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Munro started as a toolmaker. He worked at Ford for 10 years. '78 to '88.
 

Wk217

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I agree that the Tesla MY setup appears, to my layman's eye, to be more elegant but I thought the same as many here: how expensive is it to fix compared to the Ford system. Several cheaper modules, hoses, etc that probably are shared with dozens of other Ford vehicles probably make a lot more sense from both repairability as well as parts costs.
I've been watching Munroe teardowns of the MachE as well. Like many, I appreciate that for Monroe, cost of parts and ease of manufacturing are what he cares about (assuming the parts are designed to withstand the conditions they are going to encounter).

What I want to know is, if Sandy does a teardown of the Model 3 (I know he's done a teardown of the Y which I have not watched - not sure if he's done one with the 3), what would he have said about what wound up being the broken coolant fitting in that recent Rich Rebuilds video, where, road debris cracking the plastic fitting resulted in Tesla saying a new battery pack at a cost of $16,000 would be required?

Would he have praised Tesla for doing a wonderful job integrating the fitting into the battery pack? I'd much prefer some complexity if that results in better repairability.
 
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I've been watching Munroe teardowns of the MachE as well. Like many, I appreciate that for Monroe, cost of parts and ease of manufacturing are what he cares about (assuming the parts are designed to withstand the conditions they are going to encounter).

What I want to know is, if Sandy does a teardown of the Model 3 (I know he's done a teardown of the Y which I have not watched - not sure if he's done one with the 3), what would he have said about what wound up being the broken coolant fitting in that recent Rich Rebuilds video, where, road debris cracking the plastic fitting resulted in Tesla saying a new battery pack at a cost of $16,000 would be required?

Would he have praised Tesla for doing a wonderful job integrating the fitting into the battery pack? I'd much prefer some complexity if that results in better repairability.
That's pretty specific and unrealistic for him to forsee and speak to that particular scenario but he did do tear downs and spoke to the external quick connect fittings and praised their use, as they are good fittings. He did not speak to the fitting attached to the battery.

 

Nklem

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It would be interesting to get a quote for an octo valve replacement vs all the low cost Ford valves at one time…..I agree performance is the most important item here.
 

pt19713

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It would be interesting to get a quote for an octo valve replacement vs all the low cost Ford valves at one time…..I agree performance is the most important item here.
I've seen a few replaced under warranty. Unfortunately the cost is listed as zero. I've been in the Tesla frunk and labor wouldn't be much to replace it, 1.5 hrs or less once you've done it a few times.
 

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