highland58

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Have you had a car worth flooring since Jimmy Carter?
I will punch the accelerator in my Outback and all 175hp complains about it. It's lame and I want to have a car that's fun. Ford is coming to yours and my rescue and I can't wait.
If the road is wet, the outback will beat most 2WD cars at the stoplight. They will spin their tires while you will move forward quickly enough to beat them - been there done that.
 

cometguy

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This is a kind of thinking that I have personally never understood. Whoever made that Explorer back in 1992 are not the same people who make the car today. Yes, the name is still Ford on the front, but they have gone through 5 CEOs since then. The management and leadership are different. Even the factory workers are different.

Also, it's possible that 99% of the Explorers could have been good and you just got the 1% bad.

I'm not trying to attack you or defend Ford. My point is to swear off a company forever or to have blind allegiance to a company forever (Apple, Tesla) just doesn't make any sense...but a lot of people do it.
I understand, and no offense intended or taken. I've just never heard really good things about Fords in the last few decades by people that I know who've owned them or by reviewers such as Consumer Reports. (My comments refer only to Ford SUVs and sedans; I have no experience or interest in pick-up trucks or vans or in 2-door cars, but I understand that many Ford pick-up owners love them, and I also know that Mustang and Ford GT owners tend to be quite fanatical about their cars, and that's fine. Mustangs and GTs are cool-looking cars, but too impractical for me.)

My bad experience with my 1992 Ford Explorer went way beyond the car itself; the salespeople and service people were horrible, also, at multiple Ford dealerships. And nothing that Ford builds now looks remotely interesting to me in terms of design (outside of the 2-door sports cars) -- until the Mach-E came along.
 

dbsb3233

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I think of the Ford dealer as an opportunity charge. Follow the golden rule of BEVs, ABC: always be chargin'. You don't have to go for a full charge (80%) every time you plug in. Why not pick up a few free electrons here and there while you're out and about.

I agree that if your on a road trip the dealer could be an emergency backup that would enable you to reach the next fast charger.
If BEVs have to rely on that ABC rule, they'll fail to get very deep into the mainstream auto market, IMO. Most people won't put up with that time-consuming requirement.

That's why 200+ mile range is so important for mainstream market penetration... so people AREN'T constrained by that ABC rule.
 

cometguy

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If BEVs have to rely on that ABC rule, they'll fail to get very deep into the mainstream auto market, IMO. Most people won't put up with that time-consuming requirement.

That's why 200+ mile range is so important for mainstream market penetration... so people AREN'T constrained by that ABC rule.
I disagree about people not being able to think about charging when you can, always. People have learned how to do this with smartphones, computer tablets, laptops -- plugging in whenever they're near an outlet with their charger. Some 2/3 of Americans supposedly have (according to online stats) a garage in which they can charge an EV at night (or in the daytime). As a PHEV owner, I can say that it took all of one day to get used to plugging in as soon as I drove into my garage every time. And if you're fortunate enough to have an EV charger at work (which usually are provided at no charge), you don't have to use your home electricity as much.

Going to gas stations is horrible: they are dangerous and have dangerous fumes; it's all-too-easy to step in gasoline puddles or spill gasoline on your car or inside the fuel door, or to get gasoline on your hands; there's nothing enjoyable about going to a gas station. Once you experience having a full charge (or nearly full charge) of electrons each morning when starting out from home, without the need to go to a gas station (ever in a BEV; much in a PHEV), you really can change very easily to adapt to the new world of EVs and eagerly leave behind the messy world of gasoline. I'd never buy a gas-powered lawn mower; we have only used BEV lawn mowers for decades, and they're wonderful.

Yes, BEV cars have a problem with long-distance travel because technology and public-charging infrastructure are in their infancy compared to where they'll be in a couple of decades. But the focus should indeed be on BEVs for local commuting, not for long-distance driving. Focussing on long-distance driving in BEVs misses the point; most people don't need a car for long-distance driving, and most BEV owners also own an ICEV or PHEV for out-of-town trips (and that will continue to be the case for another decade or two). Stop stressing about long-distance driving in BEVs; they're perfect daily drivers for most people!
 

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If BEVs have to rely on that ABC rule, they'll fail to get very deep into the mainstream auto market, IMO. Most people won't put up with that time-consuming requirement.

That's why 200+ mile range is so important for mainstream market penetration... so people AREN'T constrained by that ABC rule.
Coming in a little late here, but the ABC rule is "there" to condition your battery before you start a trip. Like ABC overnight at your house, so your battery is conditioned before you go to work the next morning. ABC does not mean you have to charge for 5-10 minutes every time you stop to get coffee or whatever. You're right in that 200+ mile range is important, and I would extend that to 400+ mile range for mainstream adoption.
 

silverelan

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If I could hook up to a nozzle that gave me 1 gallon of gas every hour for free wherever I drove to (grocery store, movie theater, zoo, etc), I'd be insane not to take advantage of it.
 

dbsb3233

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I disagree about people not being able to think about charging when you can, always. People have learned how to do this with smartphones, computer tablets, laptops -- plugging in whenever they're near an outlet with their charger. Some 2/3 of Americans supposedly have (according to online stats) a garage in which they can charge an EV at night (or in the daytime). As a PHEV owner, I can say that it took all of one day to get used to plugging in as soon as I drove into my garage every time. And if you're fortunate enough to have an EV charger at work (which usually are provided at no charge), you don't have to use your home electricity as much.

Going to gas stations is horrible: they are dangerous and have dangerous fumes; it's all-too-easy to step in gasoline puddles or spill gasoline on your car or inside the fuel door, or to get gasoline on your hands; there's nothing enjoyable about going to a gas station. Once you experience having a full charge (or nearly full charge) of electrons each morning when starting out from home, without the need to go to a gas station (ever in a BEV; much in a PHEV), you really can change very easily to adapt to the new world of EVs and eagerly leave behind the messy world of gasoline. I'd never buy a gas-powered lawn mower; we have only used BEV lawn mowers for decades, and they're wonderful.

Yes, BEV cars have a problem with long-distance travel because technology and public-charging infrastructure are in their infancy compared to where they'll be in a couple of decades. But the focus should indeed be on BEVs for local commuting, not for long-distance driving. Focussing on long-distance driving in BEVs misses the point; most people don't need a car for long-distance driving, and most BEV owners also own an ICEV or PHEV for out-of-town trips (and that will continue to be the case for another decade or two). Stop stressing about long-distance driving in BEVs; they're perfect daily drivers for most people!
I'm talking about when out and around. Yes, home charging it great. That will be the routine for the vast majority of mainstream BEV owners... Just plug in when you get home and forget it. Just like plugging in your cell phone when going to bed.

It's feeling the need to have to plug in when going to lunch. Or the mall. Or any other stops when running around. That won't fly for most people.

Your saying exactly what I've been saying... BEVs will be mostly for around-home use, plugging in once a day overnight (at home). Not ABC. If the battery isn't big enough to get them through the day, most people won't choose a BEV.
 

dbsb3233

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If I could hook up to a nozzle that gave me 1 gallon of gas every hour for free wherever I drove to (grocery store, movie theater, zoo, etc), I'd be insane not to take advantage of it.
I think after a while most people would tire of such minuscule amounts, and the extra trouble to go out of their way to get them. Especially for what, 40 cents of electricity or something?

Some will squeeze it for everything they can get, of course, but not most.
 

theothertom

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If I could hook up to a nozzle that gave me 1 gallon of gas every hour for free wherever I drove to (grocery store, movie theater, zoo, etc), I'd be insane not to take advantage of it.
Sure, as long as you're not preventing people from charging when they actually need it. But that's not the reason for ABC as I explained above.
 

dbsb3233

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Coming in a little late here, but the ABC rule is "there" to condition your battery before you start a trip. Like ABC overnight at your house, so your battery is conditioned before you go to work the next morning. ABC does not mean you have to charge for 5-10 minutes every time you stop to get coffee or whatever. You're right in that 200+ mile range is important, and I would extend that to 400+ mile range for mainstream adoption.
I've always interpreted the ABC Rule as charging at every opportunity. I think of just charging once a day at home overnight as the opposite of ABC. The COD Rule (Charge Once a Day).

I agree that for BEVs to go beyond being mostly daily around-home commute cars, it would take closer to 400 (@ high speed) . And 3x faster charging times.

But 200+ will work for many people as the around-home car. I think there will be a lot of mainstream adoption for that purpose.
 
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Dmcerm

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I drive 30.1 miles, one way to work and 30.1 miles back for my daily round trip being obviously 60.2 miles a day.
With my AWD, 270 mile pack, (or if the wife allows me to save a few grand and just go RWD for 300 miles) both of those packs allow for a lot of daily commuting. Plus, once I arrive at home I will plug in, even if I am just swinging in for a bit before a meeting or something but otherwise, I'll plug in each night, and have a "full tank" for the next day.

Or the other way I look at it, if I *just* do my commute with the Mach-E and not drive it for other errands, I could in theory (if I can keep my foot out of it) I could drive my 60.2 miles a day to work, for 4 days and it would come out to 240.8 miles, with 20-30 some miles "left." So in a way, I could have a full battery on Monday and not have to charge until Thursday when I get home.
Now, that'd not be the wisest to run it that low in case of an emergency and counting on phantom drain, weather, temps etc. I know wouldn't get all 270 or 300 miles but think of it. I could go M, T and W without charging and have plenty of charge for all the extemporaneous miles you put on a car for errands, meetings, kid's practices/picks/drop offs etc. Then charge Wednesday night and go into the weekend before "topping up", having only charged twice in a week for a fraction of the cost of fuel.
So for me, ABC is always be charging when u get home and regardless, you'll typically have more than enough juice to do it all just like an ICE car. And EVs are more efficient around town right? Where as ICEs are worse around town so errand running will be less costly too in the Mach-E, am I thinking correctly?
Good discussion.
 

JamieGeek

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I drive 30.1 miles, one way to work and 30.1 miles back for my daily round trip being obviously 60.2 miles a day.
With my AWD, 270 mile pack, (or if the wife allows me to save a few grand and just go RWD for 300 miles) both of those packs allow for a lot of daily commuting. Plus, once I arrive at home I will plug in, even if I am just swinging in for a bit before a meeting or something but otherwise, I'll plug in each night, and have a "full tank" for the next day.

Or the other way I look at it, if I *just* do my commute with the Mach-E and not drive it for other errands, I could in theory (if I can keep my foot out of it) I could drive my 60.2 miles a day to work, for 4 days and it would come out to 240.8 miles, with 20-30 some miles "left." So in a way, I could have a full battery on Monday and not have to charge until Thursday when I get home.
Now, that'd not be the wisest to run it that low in case of an emergency and counting on phantom drain, weather, temps etc. I know wouldn't get all 270 or 300 miles but think of it. I could go M, T and W without charging and have plenty of charge for all the extemporaneous miles you put on a car for errands, meetings, kid's practices/picks/drop offs etc. Then charge Wednesday night and go into the weekend before "topping up", having only charged twice in a week for a fraction of the cost of fuel.
So for me, ABC is always be charging when u get home and regardless, you'll typically have more than enough juice to do it all just like an ICE car. And EVs are more efficient around town right? Where as ICEs are worse around town so errand running will be less costly too in the Mach-E, am I thinking correctly?
Good discussion.
I'm doing this, sort of, right now.

My total round trip daily commute is ~40 miles.

In the winter I set the Bolt to "Hilltop reserve" and plug it in nightly (The 2018 and earlier Bolts have this setting for people who live "at the top of a hill" and the start of their drive is always regen. It doesn't charge to full; leaving a bit of room at the top for that regen. The 2019 and above Bolts have a setting where you can specify the % of battery to charge to--a bit better of a solution but that is a different topic.) Thus my Bolt sits overnight plugged in keeping its battery warm and charging up (set to complete the charge right before going to work). During these cold months a full charge on hilltop results with about 150 miles of usable range.

During the summer months, however, I turn off hilltop reserve, let it charge to full and charge twice a week: Sunday night so I'm full for the week, and Thursday night so I'm full for the weekend (minus Friday's commute, of course). I typically get about 250 miles of usable range during the summer on my 238 mile EPA rated Bolt.

I want to go for the larger battery Mach-E (either RWD or AWD--not sure yet, monthly payment will determine LOL). Might be able to make it the full week with 300 miles of range.

I've only taken a couple of "greater than a tank" drives with the Bolt and in both instances it was only far enough to need a single charge--still itching to try out a real road trip with it but alas it is far easier to take the RV and tow the Bolt (and more comfortable LOL). Nonetheless on my two trips I simply found chargers and 2nd and 3rd backups just in case. In both instances the backups were not needed as the chargers were available. We recently did a trip where we took an ICE that the Bolt could have easily done--I even did the research before hand and booked hotels with chargers, etc. There was a slim chance it may not have worked so we took the ICE. Turns out there would have been no issue as I discovered 15 Level 2 chargers at our destination once we got there--dooh! LOL
 
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dbsb3233

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I'm hoping the phone app (or that there's 3rd party apps) that have reminders and notifications in them. Since we don't typically put on many miles, we really won't need to plug in every night. But if it's not an automatic habit (i.e. do it every time we pull into the garage), I'll want reminders of when to do it. Like say, when the battery gets below 50% or something. And I'll probably set the charger to cap at 85% or something. Basically live between that 50%-85% area (~70 miles) the vast majority of the time unless I plan something longer for the next day.

I'm planning on saving the $5000 and just getting the SR AWD. Really no need for longer range as we'll never use it. We'll always have an ICE for anything longer than a day's charge.

It would be ideal if there were a reminder setting in the car, where when you turn off the car, it verbally announces "You have 43% battery left, which is below your reminder setting. Please plug in."
 

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I'm hoping the phone app (or that there's 3rd party apps) that have reminders and notifications in them. Since we don't typically put on many miles, we really won't need to plug in every night. But if it's not an automatic habit (i.e. do it every time we pull into the garage), I'll want reminders of when to do it. Like say, when the battery gets below 50% or something. And I'll probably set the charger to cap at 85% or something. Basically live between that 50%-85% area (~70 miles) the vast majority of the time unless I plan something longer for the next day.

I'm planning on saving the $5000 and just getting the SR AWD. Really no need for longer range as we'll never use it. We'll always have an ICE for anything longer than a day's charge.

It would be ideal if there were a reminder setting in the car, where when you turn off the car, it verbally announces "You have 43% battery left, which is below your reminder setting. Please plug in."
I think you're overthinking it: You don't have reminders and apps on your phone telling you that your car is low on gas? You just look at the gauge and think "oh I have to get gas". (Unless you always drive your car until the "<50 miles of gas left" light is on...) I bet you don't frequently run completely out of gas?? (if ever!)

With a 200+ mile range EV its the same: pull into the garage, look at the gauge and think "oh I have to plug in now". The only real difference here is where you "fill 'er up". Its very nice plugging in at home because it only adds like 10 seconds to your "pull into the garage" routine and you have a "full tank" in the morning...don't even have to think about it.
 

dbsb3233

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I think you're overthinking it: You don't have reminders and apps on your phone telling you that your car is low on gas? You just look at the gauge and think "oh I have to get gas". (Unless you always drive your car until the "<50 miles of gas left" light is on...) I bet you don't frequently run completely out of gas?? (if ever!)

With a 200+ mile range EV its the same: pull into the garage, look at the gauge and think "oh I have to plug in now". The only real difference here is where you "fill 'er up". Its very nice plugging in at home because it only adds like 10 seconds to your "pull into the garage" routine and you have a "full tank" in the morning...don't even have to think about it.
Gas is different since there's stations everywhere and it only take 3 minutes to fill up. And there is a reminder in the car if you get to "almost out". We often aren't checking the gas gauge frequently to see if we're about out. Definitely had some "Oh crap, we need gas" moments. But it's an easy refuel.

We don't have that luxury with BEVs. It's not nearly as quick and easy to just pop in for 3 minutes and refuel when running around.

If there's no negative to just plugging in every single time you return home, then I'd agree -- just make it a habit. But there's some that say it shortens the life of the battery to keep doing more recharge cycles than you really need. I don't know if that's true or not. Is it the cycles, or the # of kWhs? Is it worse to do keep doing two 20 kWh charges than it is to do one 40 kWh charge?
 
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